Defence/Appeal Advice - IPC Member - Parking Fines Ltd involved - 2 separate tickets

Qaribbean

Afternoon all,

I've spent some time reading the Newbies sticky and it's been somewhat helpful but wanted to get some advice as my situation is somewhat nuanced, involving two separate tickets and the use of a paid appeals service, but I'll explain as succinctly as possible....

Details

The development I live on has a residents car park managed by PCM (UK) Ltd.  I have a permit and also a blue badge and was issued a ticket one night in November 2020 as I parked in an area of the car park that is just yellow gridlines.  All disabled bays were occupied (by non-blue badge holders) and needing the access I parked on the gridlines, which DO NOT block anyone from navigating the car park.  I was issued a ticket and what actually made it worse was the operative didn't issue a single ticket to any of the vehicles in the disabled bays without blue badges! I took pictures of all of those cars and included in my initial appeal to them directly thinking it was common sense (hadn't seen this forum yet otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time taking pictures and writing a lengthy letter!) and obviously was rejected. 

I then paid £18 to Parking Fines Ltd. and imagine they are well known on this forum now.  As usual they said do nothing unless a court claim arrives - this week a Letter Before Claim arrived from the infamous Gladstone...and this is when I found out Parking Fines Ltd. have now dissolved (as of June 2021)!  I did get a short email back from Peter Fisher who just said "Just await any court claim".  I found a thread on another forum with someone in a similar boat to which Peter forwarded links to some legal defense documents and stated they could no longer submit directly as the company no longer exists.

I'd rather not waste time on waiting for Peter/PFL to just send me something to fill out myself and wanted to get advice on response to Gladstones or preparing a defense (what is best next step)?

BUT!....(plot twist)....

Last week I received another on windshield PCN from PCM (UK) Ltd. as this time, again with all disabled bays taken, I parked in a normal space...and apparently my wheels were "outside of the confines of a marked bay"  which they feel warrants a ticket!

As this is a second separate ticket, I would follow some of the advice in the newbie forum, however with PCM already having my details from the first ticket dispute, will they not need to waste time searching for the driver, etc?  Is it also worth spending another £25 on these guys www DOT appealaparkingticket DOT co DOT uk or are they just going to also waste my time even though many reviews say it's worked for them.

Thanks for reading and appreciate your help!
-Q

TL;DR

1. Ticket in residential car park where I live from PCM (UK) Ltd.  Paid £18 to Parking Fines Ltd. they are now dissolved, Letter Before Claim from Gladstone's just arrived.  Seeking advice on legal defense prep/response to Gladstone as PFL will not be reliable moving forward.

2. Received a second ticket from PCM (UK) Ltd. - what's best way to challenge this given they now already know my details? Is it worth using a service like www DOT appealaparkingticket DOT co DOT uk again?

Le_Kirk

You should complain to the managing agent or managing company of the residence where you live that PCM (UK) Ltd are failing in their duty to manage the car park.  Far from keeping your disabled bay clear they are allowing vehicles without blue badges to park in your space.  This is Plan A.  If this fails you appeal to PCM (UK) Ltd using the standard text (written in blue) in the NEWBIE sticky.  You appeal as keeper.  Blue badges don't have any lawful significance in a private car park but since they have set up the car park with disabled bays and issued badges, they should take responsibility for making sure non-badge holders don't park there.

Qaribbean

Le_Kirk said:

You should complain to the managing agent or managing company of the residence where you live that PCM (UK) Ltd are failing in their duty to manage the car park.  Far from keeping your disabled bay clear they are allowing vehicles without blue badges to park in your space.  This is Plan A.  If this fails you appeal to PCM (UK) Ltd using the standard text (written in blue) in the NEWBIE sticky.  You appeal as keeper.  Blue badges don't have any lawful significance in a private car park but since they have set up the car park with disabled bays and issued badges, they should take responsibility for making sure non-badge holders don't park there.

Thanks for the response on this!

My concern was that (referring to the blue text you mention) they will already have my details given my existing dispute with them - does this matter at all?  And given my previous appeal I expect they will reject it again.

With regard to my first ticket that is now at Gladstone stage, any specific advice on next step in that battle?

Thanks!

Coupon-mad

Is it also worth spending another £25 on these guys www DOT appealaparkingticket DOT co DOT uk

No, please STOP looking for someone to muck it up for you, and throwing good money after bad.

These are easy to defend and the landowner should cancel it when you write pointing out that they are not policing their disabled bays properly, leaving you nowhere else to park and causing you potential loss and certain distress. 

There has been discrimination by their agents and thus, discrimination by the landowner, in ticketing a disabled person who was denied the accessible bays, by a parking operator who was not doing their job and were directly in breach of the Equality Act 2010.

Get a really robust complaint in to the landowner IN YOUR OWN ANGRY WORDS and don't ask for a silly 'template' please.

Qaribbean

Coupon-mad said:

Is it also worth spending another £25 on these guys www DOT appealaparkingticket DOT co DOT uk

No, please STOP looking for someone to muck it up for you, and throwing good money after bad.

These are easy to defend and the landowner should cancel it when you write pointing out that they are not policing their disabled bays properly, leaving you nowhere else to park and causing you potential loss and certain distress. 

There has been discrimination by their agents and thus, discrimination by the landowner, in ticketing a disabled person who was denied the accessible bays, by a parking operator who was not doing their job and were directly in breach of the Equality Act 2010.

Get a really robust complaint in to the landowner IN YOUR OWN ANGRY WORDS and don't ask for a silly 'template' please.

Thanks Coupon!

I'm in the middle of a pretty angry email right now and that additional point you added about the Equality Act would be useful.

To your point about having the land owner cancelling this new PCN would I be warranted in requesting that they also cancel the first ticket that has gone to Gladstone stage or would that be best suited with a different strategy?

Thanks!

Coupon-mad

Of course - BOTH must be cancelled because they and their agents have caused discrimination twice.

Could it be a PCM vehicle blocking one of the disabled bays?  Hmmm, I am only thinking out loud, given their calibre as ex-clampers who were outed on Watchdog as a Rogue Trader (show the landowner this too):

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html

This is the calibre of firm the landowner is inflicting on disabled people.  Who is parking in those bays...and even if it;s not the PCM vehicle, they are failing people like you by not keeping the accessible bays clear and then acting in a predatory manner against a person displaying a Blue Badge who has been disadvantaged directly by PCM's action/inaction re the bays.

Qaribbean

Coupon-mad said:

Of course - BOTH must be cancelled because they and their agents have caused discrimination twice.

Could it be a PCM vehicle blocking one of the disabled bays?  Hmmm, I am only thinking out loud, given their calibre as ex-clampers who were outed on Watchdog as a Rogue Trader (show the landowner this too):

This is the calibre of firm the landowner is inflicting on disabled people.  Who is parking in those bays...and even if it;s not the PCM vehicle, they are failing people like you by not keeping the accessible bays clear and then acting in a predatory manner against a person displaying a Blue Badge who has been disadvantaged directly by PCM's action/inaction re the bays.

I've fired off a scathing email to as many related email addresses as I could find!  Included the link you sent and points about Equality Act - lets hope they have some impact!

Thanks again for your input, much appreciated, will update with any outcome!

Le_Kirk

Qaribbean said:

Le_Kirk said:

You should complain to the managing agent or managing company of the residence where you live that PCM (UK) Ltd are failing in their duty to manage the car park.  Far from keeping your disabled bay clear they are allowing vehicles without blue badges to park in your space.  This is Plan A.  If this fails you appeal to PCM (UK) Ltd using the standard text (written in blue) in the NEWBIE sticky.  You appeal as keeper.  Blue badges don't have any lawful significance in a private car park but since they have set up the car park with disabled bays and issued badges, they should take responsibility for making sure non-badge holders don't park there.

Thanks for the response on this!
My concern was that (referring to the blue text you mention) they will already have my details given my existing dispute with them - does this matter at all?  And given my previous appeal I expect they will reject it again.
With regard to my first ticket that is now at Gladstone stage, any specific advice on next step in that battle?

Thanks!

If it is a different PCN and if the complaint proves useless and provided you haven't appealed before for the same PCN get going with the appeal.  Each time you try to resolve this it looks better to a judge.

Qaribbean

So I reached out to landowners who contacted PCM on my behalf and this was the response I received (names and places redacted for their privacy):

Hi both,

Please see full response to each issue below:

THE EQUALITY ACT 2010 AND USE OF THE BLUE BADGE

In regards to the claims of breaching the Equality Act, this is wholly denied. I would firstly note that it is made clear several times in the Blue Badge Rights & Responsibilities handbook that the Blue Badge is not license to park anywhere. The full document is available here The Blue Badge scheme: rights and responsibilities in England - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) and I’ve also included a few excerpts below;

 

The Equality Act 2010 provides provisions to protect the rights and interests of those with protected characteristics. This Act obliges us to make reasonable adjustments for disabled persons to ensure they are not put at a “substantial disadvantage” in accessing our service, pursuant to Chapter 2, Subset 20(3) of the Act.

While our service is to landowners in protecting their rights as owners of private land, to ensure disabled drivers are fairly treated, reasonable adjustments can and have been made. These can include;

•                     Some signage placed at lower levels

•                     Iconography on signage to allow the terms to be easily interpreted

•                     Offering reasonable alternatives to ensure compliance with the terms (e.g. if one cannot display a permit due to their disability, a virtual permit could be considered)

•                     Designated disabled bays

Exempting disabled drivers from the terms and conditions for the use of the land altogether would not be considered a reasonable adjustment.

THE PARKING CHARGE NOTICES

Moving to the two Parking Charge Notices, I shall breakdown each case

PCxxxxxxx

Issued on 27th November 2021 for parking outside of a marked bay. The vehicle was parked in a hatched area as shown below:

 

It may be worth noting that the resident didn’t display their Blue Badge and so it wouldn’t have been clear that the vehicle pertained to a disabled driver. Therefore, I am unsure how the issue of this Parking Charge Notice would constitute discrimination

 

 

The resident appealed the case on 28th November 2020. The appeal was considered and rejected on 1st December 2020. The rejection correspondence offered the driver a further 14 days to pay the charge at the reduced rate, or the opportunity to appeal the case further with the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). The resident chose neither option and a Final Reminder Notice was sent on 17th December 2020. Owing to no contact or payment, the case was referred to debt recovery on 11th January 2021 and then to solicitors at the end of March 2021.

PCxxxxxxx

The second PCN was issued on 25th June 2021 for parking outside of a marked bay. The vehicle was parked over two bays, preventing one of them from being used;

I would also note that again, no Blue Badge was displayed:

At present, no appeal has been received.

UNAUTHORISED PARKING

The resident suggests that Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd are not managing the site properly and avers that no action is being taken against vehicles parking improperly. We patrol XXXX almost daily and issue many tickets to vehicles parking improperly. Equally, we invest heavily in legal action and this particularly applies to XXXX.

Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd are unable to provide instant parking solutions because our legal powers are somewhat limited. Therefore, changing the parking behaviour of these repeat offenders is a slow process. Due to a change in legislation in 2012, we are unable to clamp or remove a poorly parked vehicle. Our legal powers extend only to issuing of Parking Charge Notices and recovery of this debt through the County Courts. As I’m sure you are aware, the courts are notoriously inert; therefore, the process of debt recovery can be rather slow.

RESOLUTION ON THE PCNs

 

In the interests of bringing the issue of the PCNs to a close, I can offer to cancel the charge issued last week and offer a reduced settlement of £100.00 on the case that has progressed to our solicitors. Should the resident agree to this, please let me know and I shall arrange the necessary on the system and advise how payment can be made.

I hope the above helps, but should you need further information or clarification, do not hesitate to return to myself

Kind regards,

XXXX

Now....I started preparing a response but wanted to get thoughts.

Firstly, the blue badge WAS displayed in the first ticket, just simply ignored!  I highlighted in their own evidence provided!

And if they wish to dispute that, below is an image I took the same day from a closer angle:

The badge is in the same place and the operative would've clearly seen it as he placed the ticket on the windscreen!? I actually submitted this picture to them in my initial appeal!

I appreciate the badge doesn't give the right to park as you please, however I made clear that the gridlines I parked on DO NOT encroach on another space or the pathway of other vehicles.  Also, I won't add here but I provided photos of 8 vehicles, WITHOUT badges parked in accessible bays and they have the audacity to state they are policing!

With regard to the second PCN, I admit my badge was not displayed, however it is not required if I'm not in an accessible bay, however they have conceded to cancel so I will say no more on that.

I am not happy to pay £100 - while they may be looking to recoup any costs, they would have none had the operative used some discretion.

Honest opinion, do I have enough evidence here to push back on their £100 settlement request?

Thanks again for any input!

Coupon-mad

In the interests of bringing the issue of the PCNs to a close, I can offer to cancel the charge issued last week and offer a reduced settlement of £100.00 on the case that has progressed to our solicitors. Should the resident agree to this, please let me know and I shall arrange the necessary on the system and advise how payment can be made.

Given the photos I am not convinced you'd win the one going to court.  £100 is less than you'd pay if you lose.

I find myself saying that in your case, I'd consider the above offer and I truly hate saying that, because the parking is actually pretty awful (sorry).

Qaribbean

Coupon-mad said:

In the interests of bringing the issue of the PCNs to a close, I can offer to cancel the charge issued last week and offer a reduced settlement of £100.00 on the case that has progressed to our solicitors. Should the resident agree to this, please let me know and I shall arrange the necessary on the system and advise how payment can be made.

Given the photos I am not convinced you'd win the one going to court.  £100 is less than you'd pay if you lose.

I find myself saying that in your case, I'd consider the above offer and I truly hate saying that, because the parking is actually pretty awful (sorry).

Thanks Coupon.

In my defense, I would never usually park on those gridlines, but as stated all bays were occupied by none badge holders and I only parked there as it's a closed off (by pillars) area and doesn't disrupt other drivers.

In the second, once again with no bays available, I took the space available and gave myself accessible room - but I accept it is inconsiderate.

Appreciate everyone's input on this, thank you kindly!