Land Registry - Possible land owner conflict

Section62

kensiko said:

Thanks for pointing out all the information, I have looked at it all but I wont pretend to understand it all to be honest.

I do notice on the plans above though there is that 'dog-leg' you spotted.

If this goes back all those years, what chance is there that the more recent plans are now incorrect?  I just find it strange that in 1989 the title deeds were edited with extra land but the more I look into it, the more confused I get!

One of the later plans (1949-1970) shows the buildings as a "Works". So my assumption would be that even if the buildings were originally the farm that owned the now developed field, at some point prior to 1970 the field was sold away from the buildings.

Then at some point the plot containing the driveway and buildings known as "The *******s" was sold to the developer who built your road.

Again, an assumption and speculation, but it is possible that either of these sales didn't correctly transfer the strip of land behind your property. It is even conceivable that it wasn't transferred to either of the new adjacent owners and (accidentally) remained in the ownership of the prior owner of "The *******s".

So the action taken in 1989 could have been to remedy the previous error.

To confirm or refute that speculation you would need to do a trawl through the legal documents and try to make sense of what has happened. I would have expected there to be something in your deeds which refers to this event.

The TL;DR is that the old mapping shows features (or at least uncertainty) that might support your claim to the additional area of land. There's enough of a hint from the old mapping to probably make it worth you spending more time looking into this.

kensiko

Section62 said:

One of the later plans (1949-1970) shows the buildings as a "Works". So my assumption would be that even if the buildings were originally the farm that owned the now developed field, at some point prior to 1970 the field was sold away from the buildings.

Then at some point the plot containing the driveway and buildings known as "The *******s" was sold to the developer who built your road.

Again, an assumption and speculation, but it is possible that either of these sales didn't correctly transfer the strip of land behind your property. It is even conceivable that it wasn't transferred to either of the new adjacent owners and (accidentally) remained in the ownership of the prior owner of "The *******s".

So the action taken in 1989 could have been to remedy the previous error.

To confirm or refute that speculation you would need to do a trawl through the legal documents and try to make sense of what has happened. I would have expected there to be something in your deeds which refers to this event.

The TL;DR is that the old mapping shows features (or at least uncertainty) that might support your claim to the additional area of land. There's enough of a hint from the old mapping to probably make it worth you spending more time looking into this.

Thanks so much for all this extra information, it helps greatly!  The title register of my deeds (minus the charges register) is shown below.







I personally don't see much in the title register that could explain things apart from the one line about the extra land labelled A.
If things do go further though at least I am looking in the right area for the questions to be answered.

Thanks again for reading.

kensiko

Just another quick post, though this time just for fun as I have looked into the people who had the caution on part of the land.
I almost feel noble knowing countesses and honourable gentlemen were once interested in the land behind our property!

The title register names Countess Josephine Savile of Mexborough and her son The Honourable Charles Savile as the 'cautioners'.

I hope it is OK to write about these people as they are sadly no longer with us with Charles passing in 2018, but their family most certainly is.

It would be interesting to know why a caution was added to this land in 2008 when Josephine died in 1992, and what happens to the caution now the named people are no longer alive.

The caution must have been transferred from a previous title register back in the day.

kensiko

I thought I would resurrect this thread form back in June.  
This is not to get more help and information regarding the actual issue as you have all been so helpful with that already.

This bump is regarding the complete lack of response from the sender of the original 'move your fence' back letter as I am unsure what to do.  Below is a timeline of communications where the name XXXX is the sender of the first letter.  The person YYYY is the only person I have had contact from and is just a go-between as they will not give me direct email address of XXXX.  This person just keeps saying I will be contacted.

__________

09/06/21 – XXXX sent me a letter advising of a fence deemed to be on their land.

11/06/21 – I responded to the letter immediately with many title deeds and information to assist in the matter, and as to this date have not heard one single communication regarding this.

14/06/21 – The letter was received via recorded delivery.

12/07/21 – After 4 weeks of no response I sent a follow up letter.

15/07/21 – To their credit a letter was sent from YYYY very quickly, unfortunately it was only to confirm my first letter had been lost on the company premises (as I have proof it was delivered) and an email address to forward my original letter to.

16/07/21 – My first contact via email with YYYY sending the original letter and enclosures which were confirmed would be sent to XXXX and printed out.

28/07/21 – After nearly 2 weeks I sent a follow-up email to enquire what was happening.

29/07/21 – Another swift response advising “I can confirm that XXXX has now been given all the documentation that you sent across to me. I know he is still going through this and will be in contact with you shortly.”  Also, on the same day “I have just spoken with XXXX, he has asked me to kindly inform you that he is investigation this with our land registry. He will come back to you as soon as possible.”

11/08/21 – Another wait of almost 2 weeks with no response so another follow-up email was sent to YYYY.  This email had no reply from YYYY.

23/08/21 – Yet another follow-up email sent where YYYY confirmed “I will chase this up with XXXX and ask him to give you an update.”

30/08/21 - A third letter (to XXXX rather and a quick email to YYYY) sent describing the lack of response with the list of previous response as shown above to which I received from YYYY "I believe we are awaiting the final documentation and then XXXX will be in contact with you. I have forwarded your below email to XXXX as I am working from home today."  

15/09/21 - I again wait 2 weeks and chase this up and receive from YYYY a week later on 23/09/21 "Sorry for the delay in my response.  I have spoken with XXXX, he said the land has been surveyed and we are now in talks with legal. He said we expect to have an answer for you in the next 2 to 3 weeks."

At this point I had urgent family issues to deal with so left the opportunity for them to get back to me as promised with a lot of breathing space.  However the promised 2-3 weeks eventually turned into 3 months!

13/12/21 - Fourth letter sent to XXXX via email to YYYY.  No response. Chased up on 20/12/21 with the reply "I have recently moved into another department and am currently working from home. I have sent this email to XXXX and will chase it up with him today." from YYYY.

__________

As of today (22/12/21) I have heard nothing since.

I can appreciate things take longer in the current climate but I think all the broken promises of contact and now a full 6 months since the original letter with having zero feedback about the actual issue is going a bit far.

I have mentioned on numerous occasions in the letters I want to sort this ASAP as I am wanting to do work in the garden which is why the fence was moved in the first instance.  They know I can still easily relocate the fence if needs must for little to no cost.  They are also aware (if they have read the letters sent) I cannot start any work as when I do that, the moving of the fence will then become a large and expensive job.

Are there any legal arguments that can be made for 'lack of response' for such an issue?  I feel I am at a roadblock which I cant pass due to complete ignorance on their part.

Thanks for reading and any advice.

TBagpuss

You could try writing and saying that as you have not heard anything you presume that they now accept that the fence is on your land and will proceed on that basis unless you hear within (say) 10 working days  with their substantive response including any evidence on which they seek to rely  if they dispute your position.

Yu could also add that you are concerned about the delay which is now over 6 months since the issue was first raised and over  over 2 since you were promised a response 'within 2-3 weeks', and that this excessive delay, which is preventing you frm dealing with your land as you wish, is not acceptable.

It wouldn't legally prevent them pursuing it but ma give them the kick they need. 

theoretica

The land labelled A is mentioned only in the section 'reservation of rights, easements and privileges'  but it doesn't say what rights etc are being reserved for it - which is very odd.   If you own it, but all rights are with someone else, what can you/they do with it?

kensiko

TBagpuss said:

It wouldn't legally prevent them pursuing it but ma give them the kick they need. 

It is this that I find odd.  I haven't specifically given them a time limit but they are aware the garden is to be worked on when this issue is resolved.  If I do give them a limit, as you have said, this is not preventing them chasing again in the future.

It seems odd they can just completely ignore me which is effectively 'scaring' me from doing the planned works in the garden.
They could quite easily wait until it's all done and then in a years time come back which doesn't seem very fair.

canaldumidi

I suspect that just as you have found the various plans and legal documents unclear/confusing, the develeopers are having the same problem!

Their original letter was sent without any real checking of the ownership issue - they just assumed that the land was theirs and that you were trying to nick it!

Once you responded so quickly, with supporting evidence, you opened a can of worms leaving their surveyors and legal bods scratching their heads, just like you!

Personally, I would not be chasing them. The ball is in their court. If/when they come back repeating their claim theland is theirs, you respond appropriately depending whether they substantiate that claim adequately or not.

Until then, leave the fence where it is and get on with your life.

(unless, of course, you are planning to move any time soon......)

kensiko

canaldumidi said:

I suspect that just as you have found the various plans and legal documents unclear/confusing, the develeopers are having the same problem!

Their original letter was sent without any real checking of the ownership issue - they just assumed that the land was theirs and that you were trying to nick it!

Once you responded so quickly, with supporting evidence, you opened a can of worms leaving their surveyors and legal bods scratching their heads, just like you!

Personally, I would not be chasing them. The ball is in their court. If/when they come back repeating their claim theland is theirs, you respond appropriately depending whether they substantiate that claim adequately or not.

Until then, leave the fence where it is and get on with your life.

(unless, of course, you are planning to move any time soon......)

Thanks, all food for thought and that may all be true but you would expect some kind of response instead of the many promises including the '2 to 3 week' after getting the 'land surveyed' and 'in talks with legal' back in September.

I don't mind leaving the fence where it is but my main worry is if I decide to continue with larger works and then in a years time they come back with 'right, we are now ready, these are our findings'.

At that point moving new summer house and gazebo off the land would be a major problem.  Like I said they are in essence stopping me from doing any work just by not responding, but how long can that continue?