Paypal claim in my favour, now seller threatening legal action for "over-refund"

fred247

Hello good people of the forum. I've been unsuccessful in finding an answer to my exact circumstances. In summary, I had a dispute with a seller resolved by PayPal, resulting in an "over-refund," that the seller is now pursuing directly with me. 

1. I purchased numerous goods totalling £X from a German aftermarket automotive parts supplier using PayPal.

2. One particular item (value £Y) was not as described, faulty, and potentially counterfeit. I requested a return through the seller, under the Consumer Contracts Regulations. The seller refused to honour my return. 

3. I raised a dispute via PayPal, summarising the situation and including correspondence. The seller did not respond to PayPal / engage in the dispute process.

4. I escalated the dispute to a claim in PayPal, in accordance with the PayPal process. The seller did not respond to PayPal / engage in the claim process.

5. By default (due to nil response) PayPal found in my favour and instructed I return the faulty item, which I did at my own expense of approx. £60. 

6. On confirmation of receipt of the goods, PayPal issued me a refund of the total order value (£X) - I was only claiming for £Y, so this was an error (£Z) between PayPal and the seller (remember that the seller declined to engage with PayPal in either dispute or claim process). I felt justified to have been refunded in full (refund of returned goods + incurred shipping costs + compensation for lost time / inconvenience of situation and sourcing alternative parts). I also reflected that the "outstanding goods" may also be counterfeit and potentially dangerous, and have set them aside in their original packaging with nil intent to use.

7. The seller issued me an invoice for the balance of order (£X less £Y = £Z, approx. £100).

8. I advised the seller that this was an issue between them and PayPal, and that I wanted no further transaction with them. I did offer to make the "outstanding goods" (£Z value) available to the seller for collection at their own expense, as deemed them surplus to my requirement and of no (safe) use to me. The seller declined this offer and threatened debt recovery action against me.

9. I summarised the facts to the the seller, and sought to close the matter. I also advised that - due to their confrontational and threatening manner - I would consider their further correspondence to be Civil Harassment, and requested they "cease and desist." They ignored this request and have continued aggressive email correspondence.

10. PayPal advise me that "this is not an error of my making, seller has forfeited their rights by not engaging in the dispute or claims process, and that I should cease to respond and delete their emails." They did suggest that I request the seller provide a prepaid returns label as a way for them to recover the "outstanding goods" (£Z value).

12. The Seller declined to provide a returns label, and has now declared that "PayPal were not party to the contract, and that my refund has no legal basis." They are threatening to pursue me for the unpaid invoice, plus any legal fees and interest for overdue invoice.

I can see this from both sides, however, I believe that I've followed the correct PayPal process (in which the seller has declined to engage), the error for the "over-refund" is not of my fault, and I've been fair in offering the seller a way of recovering their goods. I feel aggrieved that I should be liable for the approx. £100 invoice, as this would mean I'm out of pocket for the return shipping fee (£60) plus cost of genuine parts to replace those I now distrust to be authentic that I'll likely destroy.

Where do I stand ?

theonlywayisup

Assuming the seller is in Germany and you are in the UK, the seller will have to start legal proceedings in this country.

Regarding Paypal - you should have signed up to their 'returns on us' for a reimbursement (albeit only up to £15) to assist with returns postage.  From memory when opening a case with Paypal for a part refund the amount has had to be stipulated - I assume either you didn't do this correctly or it is no longer a requirement or that because the seller did not engage he could not have issued the partial refund. 

NBLondon

Is it covered under UK or German consumer law?  Did you buy direct from the supplier?  That would suggest to me that German consumer law applies (and I have no idea what that would be...).

If they agreed to accept PayPal and that was advertised on their website then they must have signed up to an agreement with PayPal which should mean the argument  about "Paypal not being party to the contract" is nonsense.  If you have followed their process in trying to return - then gone through PayPal - and you have again invited them to arrange collection/return of the rejected goods - to me - that would seem like a genuine defence to any court case they may try to bring.

You'll always be out £60 for the return shipping unless you tried counter-suing them....

tacpot12

As far as I can see, you legally owe them for the goods that were as described and not counterfeit. You can and should counter-claim for the return shipping for the item that was counterfeit. (You need to retain your evidence of how you know if was counterfeit in case they take legal action. I would offer them £X - £60 in full & final settlement. Any court will give you credit for making such an offer and any claim in the UK will be harder for them if you have made this offer and they decline. PayPal's advice (in point 10) has no legal basis. You can tell the court what their advice was, but it doesn't absolve you from paying for goods that you ordered and that were delivered. Your refund for the counterfeit item does have a basis in UK law, and likely in German law. 

pramsay13

So you are wanting to keep the other items and the full refund?
You can't do both, either return the items or the money.
If PayPal figure out they have made a mistake they may well just take money out of our account.
Assuming you've bought from a German company (unclear from post) UK consumer laws don't apply so you will need to check German laws and terms and conditions of the website you bought from.

born_again

>>> my refund has no legal basis <<<

Seller is right any dispute via Bank or PayPal is via their regulations. So if they feel they are owed the funds, they are free to take you to court to recover them.

Sandtree

Paypal doesn't replace or overrule the court system. Same as chargebacks, its just a financial institute making their own judgement and any party thats lost money as a consequence is free to take it through the courts.  The fact you have both the money and goods suggests something has not followed normal process

unforeseen

Sandtree said:

Paypal doesn't replace or overrule the court system. Same as chargebacks, its just a financial institute making their own judgement and any party thats lost money as a consequence is free to take it through the courts.  The fact you have both the money and goods suggests something has not followed normal process

OP has offered to the seller the chance to take the other items back but it has been declined.
OP has tried to put things right but seller isn't interested. 

Flight3287462

Hello Fred, new account?

mattyprice4004

You can't just arbitrarily decide that you're owed £x for time dealing with the issue - I can see why they're annoyed. 
Pay what you owe and just don't use them again. 

unholyangel

Sounds like the seller agreed to submit to PayPal as an ADR.