Smart Meter Disinformation

Phones4Chris

QrizB said:

Phones4Chris said:

Dolor & QrizB you have both missed my original point ...

Your specific question was (you can check it above if you've forgotten):

Phones4Chris said:

As for 48 tariff rates per day, how do you get them in an Aclara meter that seems to have only 4 (import) registers?

The answer to that question is, for a smart meter all the consumption is recorded on a single import register and the billing is done by the supplier's back-end systems.

It's really not complicated and I don't know why you persist with this straw-man argument.

Instead of being rude, perhaps you should go back and re-read my original comment about IHDs in particular and the information Smart meters give them -

Phones4Chris said:

@[Deleted User] & @QrizB you have both missed my original point - in response to @wittynamegoeshere where I said -

Phones4Chris said:

wittynamegoeshere said:

Verdigris said:

You also need to be fully awake, preferably on amphetamines, to get the reading before they disappear.

The anti-vaxxer, tinfoil hat, smart meters are evil, 5G causes covid brigade may possibly be on amphetamines but have probably never been fully awake.

The In Home Display may offer a means of getting a meter reading, but I needed help and a manual to work out how, it's pretty hidden.  I don't know whether they can show multi-tariff readings though.

AFAICT, it's only gives the total units used, not the figures for each rate. The idiots responsible for the design of the software/firmware for these devices and the "smart" meters are clearly not as smart as the devices could be.

I can only get the number of units for each rate by crawling into a cupboard under the stairs and fiddling with the buttons.

Your responses have actually confirmed the major criticism made here by 3 of us (at least), that the software/firmware of these devices (mainly the IHD) is poor, especially when you look at the way the "advantages" of these IHDs is promoted. It's complete garbage.
.................

And as an aside, I don't give a stuff what the back end systems do or don't do (and based on my current experience they are sadly lacking as well) what I expected to get from an IHD based on the way it's all promoted is different from reality, and it's not what I think I should be able to get either. There's a need for some major improvements.

Phones4Chris

MWT said:

Phones4Chris said:

MWT said:

Phones4Chris said:

And @[Deleted User], are you actually saying that even if your meter is set to give daily readings - not half hourly - that your energy supplier is still getting 30 minute usage data? If so, that sounds to me like there could be some sort of breach of data protection!

No, he isn't, he is saying that if you are on a tariff which uses half-hour data then the supplier will get that level of of data so you will have already had to agree to providing it to get onto the tariff...

Didn't realise @[Deleted User] had changed his name! And that is NOT clear from his post.

Your question presumed being on a tariff that used 48 half-hour slots so the answer he gave similarly presumed that fact, you however chose to interpret something else altogether from his reply, so it really didn't require much insight to provide the answer...

I made no presumptions at all. Do you work for a DCC so that you can explicitly confirm that the half hourly data is not stored in a register when the meter is set only for daily upload? This is what @[Deleted User] said -

Dolor said:

As you know, but for the benefit of those who might not, smart meters have 4 registers and each register has 48 by 30 minute slots. When daily data is pulled by the supplier, the meter provides both an index reading and an XML file with the 30 minute usage data. As you say, all billing calculations are managed by the supplier but third-party DCC Users can also access this data (with the consumer’s permission). ...............

There is NOTHING in that statement that says anything about it ONLY being if you are on a tariff that used 48 half-hour slots, indeed it says "When daily data is pulled by the supplier" ........

So @[Deleted User] needs to clarify his post and/or edit it so that it's not (we'll be polite) open to interpretation, otherwise the tin-foil hat brigade are going to be leaping all over this sort of thing.

QrizB

It must be time to press the ignore button.

[Deleted User]

Phones4Chris said:

MWT said:

Phones4Chris said:

MWT said:

Phones4Chris said:

And @[Deleted User], are you actually saying that even if your meter is set to give daily readings - not half hourly - that your energy supplier is still getting 30 minute usage data? If so, that sounds to me like there could be some sort of breach of data protection!

No, he isn't, he is saying that if you are on a tariff which uses half-hour data then the supplier will get that level of of data so you will have already had to agree to providing it to get onto the tariff...

Didn't realise @[Deleted User] had changed his name! And that is NOT clear from his post.

Your question presumed being on a tariff that used 48 half-hour slots so the answer he gave similarly presumed that fact, you however chose to interpret something else altogether from his reply, so it really didn't require much insight to provide the answer...

I made no presumptions at all. Do you work for a DCC so that you can explicitly confirm that the half hourly data is not stored in a register when the meter is set only for daily upload? This is what @[Deleted User] said -

Dolor said:

As you know, but for the benefit of those who might not, smart meters have 4 registers and each register has 48 by 30 minute slots. When daily data is pulled by the supplier, the meter provides both an index reading and an XML file with the 30 minute usage data. As you say, all billing calculations are managed by the supplier but third-party DCC Users can also access this data (with the consumer’s permission). ...............

There is NOTHING in that statement that says anything about it ONLY being if you are on a tariff that used 48 half-hour slots, indeed it says "When daily data is pulled by the supplier" ........

So @[Deleted User] needs to clarify his post and/or edit it so that it's not (we'll be polite) open to interpretation, otherwise the tin-foil hat brigade are going to be leaping all over this sort of thing.

When you sign up to a smart meter profile, you agree that smart meter usage data can be recorded in 30 minute; daily or weekly chunks. The Ofgem default position for new smart meters is changing to 30 minute usage recording. For consumers who elect to go for 30 minute usage recording, the data is pulled from the meter once per day sometime after midnight: hence, my reference to daily. Data can also be pulled manually from the meter at anytime by those, for example, signed up to BRIGHT app.

The SMETS2 technical specification states the following:

5.13.2.4 Daily Read Log

A log capable of storing thirty one UTC date and time stamped entries of the Tariff TOU Register Matrix [INFO](5.7.5.34), the Secondary Tariff TOU Register Matrix [INFO](5.13.2.10), the Tariff TOU Block Register Matrix(5.7.5.35), the Active Import Register [INFO](5.7.5.3), the Secondary Active Import Register [INFO](5.13.2.11) and the Active Export Register [INFO](5.7.5.2) arranged as a circular buffer such that when full, further writes shall cause the oldest entry to be overwritten.

My understanding is that a daily pull for 30minute profiles comes with a data populated XML file. I assume that the same would be the case for those on a daily profile save for the fact that the data calculation will show 24 hours usage data. The SMETS2 technical specification isn’t clear on this point but given the size of the document I may well have missed the relevant section.

I know that some people can get very animated about data access. All I would say is that as we see an increasing number of time-of-use tariffs with peak; mid peak and offpeak prices then, without 30 minute usage data extracted directly from the smart meter, how are consumers going to choose the cheapest tariff for their usage pattern: kWh/year is not going to cut it. If this wasn’t going to happen, then why have EDF and E.oN bought into Octopus’ Kraken Technology platform which has time-of-use billing in its DNA? FWiW, my latest Octopus electricity bill arrived 15 minutes ago. It runs to 33 pages and has no index readings. Is it correct: a simple check of a third-party app shows me that it is accurate to a penny.

In case people are not aware, other organisations are also permitted access to some of your smart data. For example, DNOs can pull 30 minute voltage data. My DNO used this data to decide whether my local transformer needed to be looked at. The DNO has subsequently tapped the transformer and reduced the baseline voltage from 248 to 240 volts.

inspectorperez

As a non technical person, I have been following this thread with interest.

I am puzzled however by some of the abbreviated terms contained in posts, and I wonder if someone would be good enough to enlighten me on the following?:-

PCW

DCC

IHD

UTC

TOU

DNO

Thanks in advance

[Deleted User]

inspectorperez said:

As a non technical person, I have been following this thread with interest.

I am puzzled however by some of the abbreviated terms contained in posts, and I wonder if someone would be good enough to enlighten me on the following?:-

PCW

DCC

IHD

UTC

TOU

DNO

Thanks in advance

Price Comparison Website

Data Communications Company - it runs the smart meter network

IHD - In House Display - the gadget that a lot of people wrongly  refer to as their smart meter. The IHD connects to the smart meter Home Area Network (HAN)

UTC - Greenwich Mean Time in all but name.

TOU - Time of Use.

DNO - District Network Operator - the organisation that gets electricity into your home; repairs broken power lines etc.

MWT

DNO = Distribution Network Operator, I suspect auto-correct got you there.

Phones4Chris

[Deleted User] said:

Phones4Chris said:

MWT said:

Phones4Chris said:

MWT said:

Phones4Chris said:

And @[Deleted User], are you actually saying that even if your meter is set to give daily readings - not half hourly - that your energy supplier is still getting 30 minute usage data? If so, that sounds to me like there could be some sort of breach of data protection!

No, he isn't, he is saying that if you are on a tariff which uses half-hour data then the supplier will get that level of of data so you will have already had to agree to providing it to get onto the tariff...

Didn't realise @[Deleted User] had changed his name! And that is NOT clear from his post.

Your question presumed being on a tariff that used 48 half-hour slots so the answer he gave similarly presumed that fact, you however chose to interpret something else altogether from his reply, so it really didn't require much insight to provide the answer...

I made no presumptions at all. Do you work for a DCC so that you can explicitly confirm that the half hourly data is not stored in a register when the meter is set only for daily upload? This is what @[Deleted User] said -

Dolor said:

As you know, but for the benefit of those who might not, smart meters have 4 registers and each register has 48 by 30 minute slots. When daily data is pulled by the supplier, the meter provides both an index reading and an XML file with the 30 minute usage data. As you say, all billing calculations are managed by the supplier but third-party DCC Users can also access this data (with the consumer’s permission). ...............

There is NOTHING in that statement that says anything about it ONLY being if you are on a tariff that used 48 half-hour slots, indeed it says "When daily data is pulled by the supplier" ........

So @[Deleted User] needs to clarify his post and/or edit it so that it's not (we'll be polite) open to interpretation, otherwise the tin-foil hat brigade are going to be leaping all over this sort of thing.

When you sign up to a smart meter profile, you agree that smart meter usage data can be recorded in 30 minute; daily or weekly chunks. The Ofgem default position for new smart meters is changing to 30 minute usage recording. For consumers who elect to go for 30 minute usage recording, the data is pulled from the meter once per day sometime after midnight: hence, my reference to daily. Data can also be pulled manually from the meter at anytime by those, for example, signed up to BRIGHT app.

The SMETS2 technical specification states the following:

5.13.2.4 Daily Read Log

A log capable of storing thirty one UTC date and time stamped entries of the Tariff TOU Register Matrix [INFO](5.7.5.34), the Secondary Tariff TOU Register Matrix [INFO](5.13.2.10), the Tariff TOU Block Register Matrix(5.7.5.35), the Active Import Register [INFO](5.7.5.3), the Secondary Active Import Register [INFO](5.13.2.11) and the Active Export Register [INFO](5.7.5.2) arranged as a circular buffer such that when full, further writes shall cause the oldest entry to be overwritten.

My understanding is that a daily pull for 30minute profiles comes with a data populated XML file. I assume that the same would be the case for those on a daily profile save for the fact that the data calculation will show 24 hours usage data. The SMETS2 technical specification isn’t clear on this point but given the size of the document I may well have missed the relevant section.

I know that some people can get very animated about data access. All I would say is that as we see an increasing number of time-of-use tariffs with peak; mid peak and offpeak prices then, without 30 minute usage data extracted directly from the smart meter, how are consumers going to choose the cheapest tariff for their usage pattern: kWh/year is not going to cut it. If this wasn’t going to happen, then why have EDF and E.oN bought into Octopus’ Kraken Technology platform which has time-of-use billing in its DNA? FWiW, my latest Octopus electricity bill arrived 15 minutes ago. It runs to 33 pages and has no index readings. Is it correct: a simple check of a third-party app shows me that it is accurate to a penny.

In case people are not aware, other organisations are also permitted access to some of your smart data. For example, DNOs can pull 30 minute voltage data. My DNO used this data to decide whether my local transformer needed to be looked at. The DNO has subsequently tapped the transformer and reduced the baseline voltage from 248 to 240 volts.

Thanks for that detailed response, much appreciated, and some of your comments are very interesting. I agree when there starts to be a lot more multiple TOU tariffs per day, more frequent data usage extraction is going to be needed.

I shall go an investigate this "Octopus’ Kraken Technology platform which has time-of-use billing in its DNA" a bit more, when I have time (or perhaps ask you about it a bit more if you don't mind, at some future date, not now).
I don't know what EDF are doing with it (yet?).
I had an EDF bill yesterday, the smart meter reading for the bill date was correct but there was a rate change part way through the billing period, you just wouldn't believe what readings were used on the day of the change - ESTIMATED - some sort of sad joke. Another complaint to EDF submitted. They were also given the correct readings which I took from the smart meter myself! There's an amended bill in the pipeline but the new total is obviously wrong, about half what it should be, it beggars belief.

QrizB said:

It must be time to press the ignore button.

What a wise idea, since you were obviously not willing/capable of providing the very informative detailed response that @[Deleted User] has kindly provided.

Verdigris

I don't know what EDF are doing with it (yet?).

They don't appear to have gone over to Kraken, yet. It's a fair bet they'll manage to make a complete spherical objects of it, given their legendary incompetence at everything else.

Phones4Chris

Verdigris said:

I don't know what EDF are doing with it (yet?).

They don't appear to have gone over to Kraken, yet. It's a fair bet they'll manage to make a complete spherical objects of it, given their legendary incompetence at everything else.

More than likely