Extension planning question

foofi22

Hi
Maybe there are better places to ask, but here goes...
We are using an architect to plan an extension, we received a fixed price quote.  The planning stage text of the quote read:

• Completing and Submission & monitoring a Planning Application with Design and Access Statement - but excluding local authority Domestic Planning fee (£228) and purchase of Ordnance Survey location and block plan (£35). 1 day @ £xx per day = £x

A plan was submitted and we were invoiced for the above (including the fees) - fair enough. The planning application was rejected.

Fast forward to now, a updated plan has now been submitted.  However we have now been invoiced for an additional 2 days work (fees not required)

Maybe the "fixed price quote" doesn't apply here, I don't know.  I was under the impression the "planning" stage text meant getting a plan submitted and approved.  Can anyone suggest what I could do, even if it just an email response to get this off my chest!  

We'll probably just end up paying it but it just seems wrong the cost has escalated so much without even advising us this was the case.

user1977

I would think it reasonable to assume that the initial fee only covers the work up to the determination of the original application, rather than then going on to submit an amended application. Ideally yes they ought to have clarified what the fee for that would be before going ahead, but that doesn't imply that they can't charge a reasonable fee for their work.

eve824

No, the fees won't have been based on getting plans approved, as that is out of the control of the architect and would be unfair. Imagine if it took 4 or 5 attempts, would you expect the architect to do all the amendments for free?
He should have advised you, however, of the fees before the work commenced. But you have no grounds to refuse to pay for the work that he has completed for you.

Section62

foofi22 said:

The planning application was rejected.

What do you mean by "rejected"?

Did the council refuse to register the application (e.g. it was invalid), or did they consider the application and refuse consent?

If it was the former then you might have grounds to explore whether the failure to pass validation was due to an error on the architect's part and if they should be (partly) liable for additional costs.

Otherwise, in my view the wording you quoted above would cover the submission of the application and dealing with minor queries, not resubmission following formal refusal.

foofi22

The application was considered and refused, mainly on the grounds of "bad design"
We're going to pay up, we just could have been better informed. I'm not sure why the resubmission costs twice as much as the original, we're not made of money!
Any suggestions on how to word an email to express our dissatisfaction with not being clear on fees?

anselld

foofi22 said:

The application was considered and refused, mainly on the grounds of "bad design"
We're going to pay up, we just could have been better informed. I'm not sure why the resubmission costs twice as much as the original, we're not made of money!
Any suggestions on how to word an email to express our dissatisfaction with not being clear on fees?

Presumably the two days was to make amendments to the plans, perhaps after consulting with the planners, and resubmit and monitor the application.  Whereas the original 1 day was just for an application not the drawings themselves.

I fear you have some nasty surprises coming as you progress through the build stages if you are already dissatisfied with this minor setback which should not be unexpected at the whim of planners.

Section62

foofi22 said:

The application was considered and refused, mainly on the grounds of "bad design"
We're going to pay up, we just could have been better informed. I'm not sure why the resubmission costs twice as much as the original, we're not made of money!
Any suggestions on how to word an email to express our dissatisfaction with not being clear on fees?

Did the original agreement say anything about what would happen if the application was refused?

In the absence of prior agreement I would expect the architect to come back to you for further instructions before submitting an amended application. Was there any correspondence between you after the initial refusal?

"Bad design" also needs to be clarified. I would expect an architect to have an understanding of the planning authority's policies and standards and produce a design which was likely to be approved, or possibly advise you that what you want is unlikely to get approval. "Bad design" starts getting into the territory of whether they had the appropriate competence to carry out the task, but context is key here.

anselld

Section62 said:

foofi22 said:

The application was considered and refused, mainly on the grounds of "bad design"
We're going to pay up, we just could have been better informed. I'm not sure why the resubmission costs twice as much as the original, we're not made of money!
Any suggestions on how to word an email to express our dissatisfaction with not being clear on fees?

Did the original agreement say anything about what would happen if the application was refused?

In the absence of prior agreement I would expect the architect to come back to you for further instructions before submitting an amended application. Was there any correspondence between you after the initial refusal?

"Bad design" also needs to be clarified. I would expect an architect to have an understanding of the planning authority's policies and standards and produce a design which was likely to be approved, or possibly advise you that what you want is unlikely to get approval. "Bad design" starts getting into the territory of whether they had the appropriate competence to carry out the task, but context is key here.

When planners use the term "bad design" it us usually just an opinion on the aesthetics, nothing to do with policy or standards.  Arguably the Architect should have the experience to know their likes and dislikes, but you can't please all the people ....

foofi22

anselld said:

Section62 said:

foofi22 said:

The application was considered and refused, mainly on the grounds of "bad design"
We're going to pay up, we just could have been better informed. I'm not sure why the resubmission costs twice as much as the original, we're not made of money!
Any suggestions on how to word an email to express our dissatisfaction with not being clear on fees?

Did the original agreement say anything about what would happen if the application was refused?

In the absence of prior agreement I would expect the architect to come back to you for further instructions before submitting an amended application. Was there any correspondence between you after the initial refusal?

"Bad design" also needs to be clarified. I would expect an architect to have an understanding of the planning authority's policies and standards and produce a design which was likely to be approved, or possibly advise you that what you want is unlikely to get approval. "Bad design" starts getting into the territory of whether they had the appropriate competence to carry out the task, but context is key here.

When planners use the term "bad design" it us usually just an opinion on the aesthetics, nothing to do with policy or standards.  Arguably the Architect should have the experience to know their likes and dislikes, but you can't please all the people ....

The reference to bad design was not aesthetics, it was to do with the design of the junction between the extension and next door (we have a semi)

foofi22

anselld said:

foofi22 said:

The application was considered and refused, mainly on the grounds of "bad design"
We're going to pay up, we just could have been better informed. I'm not sure why the resubmission costs twice as much as the original, we're not made of money!
Any suggestions on how to word an email to express our dissatisfaction with not being clear on fees?

Presumably the two days was to make amendments to the plans, perhaps after consulting with the planners, and resubmit and monitor the application.  Whereas the original 1 day was just for an application not the drawings themselves.

I fear you have some nasty surprises coming as you progress through the build stages if you are already dissatisfied with this minor setback which should not be unexpected at the whim of planners.

I accept there will be unknowns and things that change, which will inevitably cost more money. However in all cases I would expect to be told about the impact on cost or time in advance!

DD265

There's a line in our contract with an architect which states that planning consent cannot be guaranteed and I think that's fair enough.
I do agree it would have been better if they were up front about the additional fees though, particularly as it was significantly more than the original fee from the sounds of it. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, the 'fixed price' initial fee might be a marketing strategy.
At the end of your next communication I'd add a line saying something like "we'd appreciate receiving estimates of additional fees in the future to assist with managing our budget."