Contradictory info re fee for set aside with consent

Johnersh

Chill.
Should means should... But no guarantees, as you yourself note. 

The preamble to the order is poor in my view, but given that you've never properly explained the circumstances by which you failed to respond to the claim AFAIK, it's impossible to help with a form of wording that addresses that. 

zoe21b

Johnersh said:

Chill.
Should means should... But no guarantees, as you yourself note. 

Haha, I wish I could. Soon, I hope.

Yes, now I understand what you mean, the asterisks make complete sense now (after Coupon-mad explained it). Your words were correct but my brain was in what-do-I-need-to-do-mode" and was thinking...oh no, what order do I need to make and why 'should' and not 'must'...and why asterisks. My brain is a bit overloaded these days from this, especially the last couple of evenings. Interestingly enough there is another thread with another person in near identical circumstances who was saying the same. But you 'guys' patience is amazing.

zoe21b

Johnersh said:

The preamble to the order is poor in my view, but given that you've never properly explained the circumstances by which you failed to respond to the claim AFAIK, it's impossible to help with a form of wording that addresses that. 

This I feel may be very important to increase my chances for success. I hope I can sufficient help here to improve it from poor to outstanding.

I assume we're speaking about the content of the consent order from Elms when you say preamble (sorry, not familiar with legal lingo and I am ESL).

Here are the circumstances from my pov and in chronological order. I have more details but trying to be succinct (I'm sorry, I know it will be very long anyway!) and yet include what seems relevant to paint the picture both of actual happenings but also some of my thinking getting to here:

• The saga starts with me living at address1 and this is what is on my car's V5 log book.
• 07/2019 Moved from address1 to address2, both rented properties, I had a few weeks overlap in June/July but last physical access to address1 was in 07/2019. Notified all relevant parties that I had moved, this include DVLA by phone and then following any instructions from them to change my address. I have phone bills proving 3 telephone calls to DVLA at the time, and the only thing I did with them (as far as remember) was to change address, I did get a new driving license but I was not aware that I should also get a new V5 (this lack of awareness was my fault, it clearly says it on the V5...but I would have unconsciously assumed that when you call an institution they will change all the different 'accounts' but in any case the V5 was never was part of my todo list re address changes). All this was completed in 07/2019. I have plenty of proofs that I no longer lived at or had any liabilities at address1 after moving out, including final council tax bill, utility bills, etc. and similarly plenty of proofs that I had moved to address2. Even electoral roll is updated in credit report with address2 and 09/2019 date. I did not get a Royal Mail postal forwarding because I thought I had notified everyone (and money was/is tight). Obviously I will never move again without getting postal forwarding (in hindsight it would have been a bargain but at the time it seems like a lot of money). I have lived only at address1 and address2 in the last 6ish years and are still at address2.
• 10/2019 Dropped my parents at Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield. Shortly prior to arriving at the airport and since we had plenty of time, I stopped on a small dead-end strip of road off a roundabout on the main road to spend a last few minutes in a quiet and private setting (my car) with my parents. My parents, who are not young, live overseas and we don't see each other often so their departure was a bit emotional. I stopped in the left lane, facing a field and had the roundabout behind me, there was another vehicle stopped in the right lane facing the roundabout (partially, I think, reassuring me that it was not a problem to stop there...I know, herd mentality). It was evening and dark, and I didn't notice or pay attention to the sign that was there (ref pictures from VCS in the SAR results). I didn't notice any big or obvious signs telling me not to stop there, otherwise I wouldn't have.The road off the roundabout is very short, maybe 25 yards, and there is no use or purpose to it other, I presume, than allow access to the field (there were gates across at the end of the small piece of road as per VCS pictures), so naively I would have thought this was safe and ok to stop for a little bit. I was not in any way interfering with the roundabout or the main road. At the time I didn't even consider or was worried that maybe we shouldn't stop there, it just seemed like a good place to do it. Now, of course, I believe it may be a deliberate honey trap to catch people like me or force us to park in the airport at their 'very reasonable prices'...in my case, it was not to save money on parking at the airport but to share a special last moment for a long while with my parents (my kids and I haven't seen them in person since). Whilst we were there, a vehicle came up behind mine. It was only there for a short time as far as I recall and they didn't indicate we couldn't stop there (i.e. no one came out knocking on the window telling us to move off like in the good old days...not that I have ever stopped anywhere I wan't allowed to except for this one time ). I got worried about this behaviour so we drove off right away. During the estimated 5-10 minutes we were stopped there, none of the three of us left the vehicle. Drove to the airport, parked up, dropped my parents, paid for the parking and drove off.
• 01/2021 Applied for a credit card (I already had one but it had no perks so was trying to get a cashback card...money was/is tight in my household so trying to increase income and decrease outgoings and hence familiar with mse). This was turned down. I was perplexed because I have always paid all bills, car loan, rent, credit card, etc in time and I already have a credit card with a reasonably high limit that I only ever used a small fraction of (I think never more than 20%). Obtained via mse a free Experian credit report, my first ever, and noticed all was perfect...until I came to the CCJ at the end (and nearly fell of the chair). This was first time I ever became aware of anything to do with this parking issue, I had never received any letters from anyone re this at address2 and never heard about the letters sent to address1. This was on a Sunday btw, looked into it online, found info re the court and phone number. Didn't find THIS forum, unfortunately!!
• 01/2021 The day after I discovered the CCJ (this is Monday), I called the court. They told me a few words re the case (that it's Vehicle Control Services) and said they would email me the particulars (mind you, at this time I assumed this meant the info re the case...I had no idea about this or any other forum, PPC, claim forms, the limited info in particulars etc...I was obviously very inexperienced or naive re this whole little world). I don't recall the exact timing between the calls and emails here but from my point, I was reacting quickly (I can find them if needed)...I already knew I wanted to look at buying a house in 2021 and I knew a CCJ was a very bad thing in that scenario (thanks to mse). The court emailed me but it was an empty email (footers and stuff there but no info about my case and no attachments). So next day or so (I was trying to balance this whilst being forcefully deployed to a covid respiratory ward...I was under immense stress at work...working 13 hours shifts in a ward where every patient is covid positive, I didn't want either of these high-stress situations but I never had a choice in them). I called the court again (which always seems to have 20-60 minutes wait...so I can't make calls during work time where I have maximum 30 minutes break and their opening hours are all within the time I'm working unless I have a weekday off which I on average have once a week) and they again said they would email particulars. This time they did send a small blurb which indicated what this was a about...it included the words parking and a date and a reference to a road called Robin Hood something. Now a bell rang in my head and I started to be able to understand what the CCJ was related to. I figured out that someone likely used my car licence number to obtain my address and this made me check V5 log book and then realised that it probably hadn't been changed by DVLA on my calls to them - I updated it right away online and received a new V5 shortly after...I've been living in fear of more CCJs coming along due to this). But I couldn't figure out how I could have a parking fine (sorry, 'fine' is how I was thinking about it...didn't know about 'speculative invoices' at this time) because I knew at the airport you (at that time at least) drive in, take a paper ticket, and when leaving pay for the ticket and use it to open the barrier - it seemed impossible to get out without paying (unless barriers broken and open and I think I'd have remembered that). I had not stopped anywhere else in the airport (except maybe for whatever reason during normal traffic). So called court again and they said to call the Claimant.
• 01/2021 I called VCS who said to email their litigation department. They said they would reply within 28 days but due to covid it may be longer. Emailed litigation department.
• 2021/02 Called VCS again, they couldn't say when I'd get a response. I gave them some time (covid compassion, shame on me) but eventually decided that I need to escalate probably via a SAR to make sure I get something (was always fearful of bailiffs might come around now cuz this was a 10+ months old CCJ or further costs added to the money owed - I assumed it was a fair and valid parking ticket, of course).
• 03/2021 Sent SAR to VCS.
• 04/2021 Received SAR info. Mind you, their latter is dated on the 29th days after my email requesting it. Cutting it very close to the legal 30 days requirement but means I only received it 30-some days after sending SAR. At this time it 71 days has gone from my first call to VCS to get info until I received the SAR result (and had I not submitted SAR I might still be waiting). Now, when having learned that one should act promptly and this means a few weeks, I think that VCS was possible either just slow, very overloaded or deliberately delaying as much as they can. The SAR pictures (which are 4 pics all within a 60 seconds) clearly shows my car, yellow lines and even a sign. The quality of the printed picture is too bad to be able to confirm anything on the sign, but it could look as there are some graphics and some text. I believe I stopped here (google streetview: goo.gl/maps/SSydSFMkUFB15sB49), it was not something I was focusing at all that day (if I knew a court case was the result I'd have kept meticulous notes, but it tallies with my memories and the pictures from the SAR. Google streetmap do not show the same as on the SAR pictures but the google image says it is from 05/2018. I can provide the pictures from the SAR is anyone want. The SAR shows copies of letters and some screenshots. The parking incident happened on 21/10/19 and I think the first letter is dated 28/10/19 - and the last in 02/2020. Interestingly, maybe, is that one of the screenshots has a button called "experian" but it is unticked. Not sure what this means or does at VCS but some people say a trace with credit reference company costs £0.30-£2.00. Maybe this is to trigger that or record if it was done, just guessing here.
• 04/2021 For a couple of weeks it was in my hands. I know not an excuse but I wasn't aware of the time restriction at this time and I was busy (unrelated but some other emergencies popped up...and I thought I was doing the right things blissfully unaware of the time limit). During this time I read up and understood more about that there were options like set aside etc. Unfortunately I did not come across this particular thread/forum (I was familiar with mse money saving info but not the forums).
• 04/2021 Called VCS to talk with them re set aside, they said to speak with Elms re everything.
• 04/2021 Called Elms (who were very friendly and fast in responses). They told me the procedure (this order and nothing else: Pay £185 judgment, download, fill in N244 and send to Elms, Elms will send me consent order, I to send N244 and CO to court including £100 court fee.
• 04/2021 By this time I had read a lot of stuff online, a lot of contradictory things, and I had posted a post on legalbeagles ("CCJ/Consent Order - is this the best approach?") to see if that process what good because I had read not to pay up front etc...and Elms had said that the process was their company policy, i.e. cannot be changed.
• 05/2021 I gave it some time but didn't feel I got sufficient responses on legalbeagles (but not dissing the replies I got - all are appreciated) to put my mind at rest or know exactly what I needed to do to not shoot myself in the foot. So I posted on pepipoo and mse, too, to see if I could get clarity. And from that we are here (with my 2 threads on mse) including me flipping forth and back between doing it myself, getting professional help and being confused by all the contradictory advice I got from many sources.

At some time I also did this:

• I already had a note where I had ticked off that I had changed address with DVLA but I needed to find out when, so after obtaining my itemised phone bills, I identified the calls (still same number) I had an chat with DVLA (after calling *many* times but most times they just say they are busy and hang up...great customer service!) to understand why V5 wasn't changed (i.e. did they tell me to do something on the phone calls but I didn't do it or whatever). I asked for transcript or audio recording or notes from their system re my 3 calls to them in 07/2019. They said they don't keep this for that long (I think they said they keep audio recording for 90 days) and to do a SAR to get what they have. Really, I'll give them full 0 stars for customer service...communicating to your customers via a SAR).
• I contacted the lettings agency for address1, they contacted the tenant who lives there and is only one since I moved out), the letting agents told me that tenant told them that all letters addressed to me would have been returned to sender. Both VCS and CCBC said during conversations that they had no record of any letters coming back. Possible someone is not providing the correct info (at least one of lettings agency, tenant, VCS or court, methinks) - because surely, hopefully, Royal Mail do not have so many return letters go lost in the post (I'm aware of about 5-6 I got from the VCS SAR and I presume the court and Elms also would have sent some).

I have been open with the court, VCS and Elms and online that, for me, my objective is to get the CCJ cleared from my credit history so I can get a mortgage (didn't know anything about credit washing at the time) - but this fact will likely be on recordings and in notes in one or more places. Had the original ticket arrived to me I would have paid it, not because I necessarily agreed with it or admitted that I broke some contract (I wouldn't even have known there was a contract) but at a discount from £100 to £60 for something I would have thought was valid and to make it go away. I would not have done much else (than try and not get a ticket next time). I am not litigious in nature so don't fight every injustice I am exposed to (and I of course thought ANY ticket/fine/whatever was because I had done something wrong). I trust people and institutions...but this experience has damaged that somewhat and I find myself, maybe overly, sceptical about what institutions/people say.

A little rant: his whole incident has had a non-pleasant realisation of how horrible the human impact of this PPC/CCJ business is. Now I go and read the sign when parking at Tesco (I learned that they have changed it from 2 hours to 1.5 hours...presumable a lot of people will get a £70 invoice when they next time do their weekly shop and take 1.5 to 2 hours - I guess I might even if there is a speculative invoice in the process and they did the DVLA check before DVLA registered the address change in 01/2021). This is all by ANPR so presumably at about minute 91 (+plus grace period if any) the automated system starts the process that leads to these tickets and CCJs and stress/frustration/pain/arguments/loss of spare time...man, what kind of ruthless hostile society are we building with this. And what impact it must have on the justice system taking resources away just to make a few people richer. Make peace, not war - comes to mind.

So, phew, the request here is if I can get the exact wording to make the consent order as good as possible for me and my chances, then that would be great. If needs discussion among the people experience in such matters, please go ahead. I will be forever grateful for your assistance.

zoe21b

There is a small development in this saga...CCBC have told me that there's no need to send the N244 (and fee is £100; please see my 3rd thread for more if interested).

I would still appreciate the proposed consent order feedback on my post above which would help me getting my consent order right in any case (i.e. whether I can convince Elms to not have a N244).

Coupon-mad

 (i.e. whether I can convince Elms to not have a N244).

Why would you, that's something I don't understand.  It's utterly unimportant.  It's a form we always use and so do they.  It adds no cost because setting aside a CCJ is £100 for the application and the N244 is the right 'application form'. 

Think of it as a cover letter that shows all the parties and what you want, and attaches the consent Order.  There is no need to try to persuade them not to require a N244 application form among the other papers.

 I have phone bills proving 3 telephone calls to DVLA at the time, and the only thing I did with them (as far as remember) was to change address, I did get a new driving license but I was not aware that I should also get a new V5 (this lack of awareness was my fault, 

I think I've already stated on this thread, that IMHO the main fault is the DVLA's. 

It is my opinion that their failed data rectification of addresses systems has actually been a main cause of all the CCJs going to wrong addresses in parking cases.  It also causes issues for Council PCNs and Police NiPs which also go to the wrong address.  This is not consumers' fault; it is far too commonplace to lay the blame with individuals and the MoJ links I provided in your other thread show that this is mainly an issue with parking firms.

It's been identified by the MoJ and action will eventually be taken to improve things.  I presume the MoJ are liaising with the MHCLG and DFT about the issues, to dovetail with the new framework to regulate private parking firms.  I hope they are and I hope the DVLA get told to get their house in order because if not, people like you should be complaining about the DVLA to the Information Commissioner because the DVLA caused this loss and stress.  .  This could have been avoided if the DVLA had told you and rectified all their databases.

The DVLA should have either rectified all their databases or unequivocally told you on the form about changing your driving licence, that you MUST separately change the address for any car you own/keep. 

And they should reiterate that in large letters when returning any address-changed driving licence to people.

zoe21b

Coupon-mad said:

 (i.e. whether I can convince Elms to not have a N244).

Why would you, that's something I don't understand.  It's utterly unimportant.  It's a form we always use and so do they.  It adds no cost because setting aside a CCJ is £100 for the application and the N244 is the right 'application form'. 

Think of it as a cover letter that shows all the parties and what you want, and attaches the consent Order.  There is no need to try to persuade them not to require a N244 application form among the other papers.

If you read it all, which is seems, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

To answer year question...after having spent weeks looking into this set aside matter and despite really having no interest in the subject but being forced if I want to have a chance of owning my home, I was very near to go with a very expensive company who said they will do this and handle everything. However, when I yesterday on this forum got convinced that a N244 is a must then I ditched that company based on that one thing only (that they insisted on no N244 but a CO only). Their argument for not using the N244 in first round is because you cannot re-use the same defence. So if putting the defence in the N244 (or other docs that must/should come with it) then I'd use my only defence on round 1 and if set aside is rejected then I would have a much harder/impossible time doing round 2 using my defence for first time (because 2nd round, afaik, would be contested and hence a N244 matter as per CCBC). That is the reason that when CCBC told me today (and twice) that no need for N244 in consented then I was happy (but still needing to sort the consent order to be outstanding). I guess it comes down to what one puts on the N244 but I have seen samples referring to cpr 13.2 and 13.3, which I assume is my defence. But I really don't have interest (or time) to study this in detail so my approach is a bit pick and choose (especially because no one here gives professional advice but rather IMHO (and rightly so) and the professional advice I got from 2 companies (I haven't paid them, this was during the assessment phase before committing) was contradictory.

For a while I suspected the reason that Elms want the N244 is that they want to know my defence in round 1 (the consented round) and hence with this have an insight (or having caused me to burn my do-not-re-use-defence card) and which may paint me into a corner. Not unlike the consent order and the payment up front...all in their favour and not for my sake or peace of mind. So I was looking for ways to get independent clear unambiguous advice (here or professional legal route).

There are a lot of assumptions on my part in the above (I have what I have to work with...except time apparently because of the 'promptly' requirement).

Not that I want to ask another question but I am quote curious about why the court would specifically and explicitly say that N244 is only for contested set asides...if it aint so.

Anyway, depending on what I need to put in the N244 when I come to that, I may or may not include it. I think this will become clear when I get the consent order fixed (I can submit without N244, I think, but not without the CO).

I think I've already stated on this thread, that IMHO the main fault is the DVLA's.
<snip>
The DVLA should have either rectified all their databases or unequivocally told you on the form about changing your driving licence, that you MUST separately change the address for any car you own/keep. 

And they should reiterate that in large letters when returning any address-changed driving licence to people.

Yeah, now I really know why you like it all in one thread  

All this with DVLA is irrelevant for me. I'm all for having a better, more efficient and more just system & DVLA but I'm ONLY here to succeed in getting the CCJ off my record.

I should have read the V5 and I would have known that I should change it when I move. Whatever problems DVLA has does not change this fact. I already had all the info when they told me this on the V5 for address1. And I accept that, and I'm paying for it (at least to the tune of £185 minus 60 plus £100 plus endless stress and hours spent).

What I am asking in THIS thread though (now), is to get the consent order right so I don't go with one assessed "poor" by another poster. Any help there would really come in handy.

Coupon-mad

Not that I want to ask another question but I am quote curious about why the court would specifically and explicitly say that N244 is only for contested set asides...if it aint so.

They may well be right.  Have to say, you are the first person who has gone into it that deeply.  We've never needed to, because we know it works with a N244 so that's what we do in any set aside case.   

You are going a different way and it may be right but we think the solicitor is a waste of your money.

It will be interesting if you try it without a N244 but you can't, if Elms won't agree.  You certainly need to remove the bit that suggests credit cleansing.

zoe21b

Coupon-mad said:

Not that I want to ask another question but I am quote curious about why the court would specifically and explicitly say that N244 is only for contested set asides...if it aint so.

They may well be right.  Have to say, you are the first person who has gone into it that deeply.  We've never needed to, because we know it works with a N244 so that's what we do in any set aside case.   

You are going a different way and it may be right but we think the solicitor is a waste of your money.

It will be interesting if you try it without a N244 but you can't, if Elms won't agree.  You certainly need to remove the bit that suggests credit cleansing.

OK, now think about this. My Tesco store used to have 2 hours free parking. First time I went there after having understood what my CCJ is about, I went and looked at the sign. It is now 1.5 hours. They just put a sticker over with 1.5, so I wonder what defence they have if this is removed or falling off...or how I'd prove it if it shows 2 hours but I don't photograph it...tsk tsk. Anyway, point being "it used to work that I park there for up to 2 hours" but it won't stay that way.

Maybe no one actually get tickets until after 2 hours but they put the 1.5 hour limit for other reason (maybe their ANPR etc can't add grace period, maybe they have too many car there (a lot of people just park there and walk to town)). Who knows.

You might find the same one day...or maybe not, that the N244 get rejected because they want more paperwork and £255 for it.

But I'm a bit proud if I'm the first one to call the court and ask them. I doubt so, though.

Re the credit cleansing, yeah, I figure so too. And I don't know yet if I'll use without N244. I'll see what responses I get on this. I'll try to remember to come back and update the threads when this saga is over one day. Don't know either if I use solicitor...my best bet right now seems to be a ccj remover who is very expensive but who already deals with VCS and Elms - but I don't know if I can trust them. Best because least work for me and presumable experienced and professional dealing with court. Then on the other hand, I know nothing about 'you guys' either...you sound like you do a lot of CCJ set asides with N244 and £100...but I figure then that you are likely commercially involved in this or are just very bad at parking.

KeithP

zoe21b said:
...but I figure then that you are likely commercially involved in this or are just very bad at parking.

Are those really the only two options you can come up with?

zoe21b

KeithP said:

zoe21b said:
...but I figure then that you are likely commercially involved in this or are just very bad at parking.

Are those really the only two options you can come up with?

No, I'm sure I can invent more. But maybe you can help me expand my horizon?

Btw I meant no offence, it was a bit of a cheeky remark...and it wasn't meant to be accusatory in any way. If that's how anyone sees it.