Contradictory info re fee for set aside with consent

Umkomaas

OK, thanks for a very clear and unambiguous answer. May I, respectfully, ask if this is fact and not opinion? I think I read somewhere you are a solicitor but wouldn't like to assume.

I don't think it's fair (even inadvertently) to paint @Johnersh into a corner. MSE has some very strict rules, and are quick to ban anyone who falls foul of them. I'm sure Johnersh can stick up for himself, but I for one would hate to see his wise counsel to the forum blocked. 

zoe21b

Umkomaas said:

OK, thanks for a very clear and unambiguous answer. May I, respectfully, ask if this is fact and not opinion? I think I read somewhere you are a solicitor but wouldn't like to assume.

I don't think it's fair (even inadvertently) to paint @Johnersh into a corner. MSE has some very strict rules, and are quick to ban anyone who falls foul of them. I'm sure Johnersh can stick up for himself, but I for one would hate to see his wise counsel to the forum blocked. 

Apologies for any offence if I (unwittingly) broke the rules. No intention to cause any harm, just thought this advice was so specific and useful that I wanted to try and establish if someone was saying what they strongly believe (albeit not a fact) or whether it was a fact. I retract my question.

And on same note to another poster, I did not ask anyone's profession, I believe I read somewhere in the hundreds of posts I've read here over the last couple of weeks that his profession was mentioned by someone else. But again, apologies if my reference to it was wrong or it indeed was the same person.

Sorry. 

zoe21b

If this is a banneable offence, it should be me and not @Johnersh who is banned.

Johnersh

I don't hold myself out as a specialist for a number of reasons, inter alia:
* MSE forum rules
* insurance
* my obligations to my colleagues
* err this is the small claims track... 

I am a regulated professional and like to think I know my onions, although TBH a number of regular forumites are much more knowledgeable about the parking appeals process pre-action and the technical detail on PoFA.  

I don't do advice, just point people towards Ct rules and helpful sites. All tactical considerations are for those posting. What you need to realise is litigation is all about weighing up risk and what the court might decide. There are no guarantees, even if you're pretty confident.

It is also always possible to be wrong. I assumed that the usual consent order rules would apply here, but no. 

Regrettably, I have just revisited the EX50 and, on balance, I agree with the o/p's solicitor. The fees guide states clearly that the fees of £255 and £100 apply for general applications where no other fee is specified.

Applications for set aside are, however, a specified type of application in the EX50 for which there is a £255 fee.

So, whereas you might "get away with" paying a lower fee if no-one at the court spots it, technically on the correct reading of the fees schedule your solicitor is correct. 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news... 

Coupon-mad

I'm doing due diligence on a couple of professionals to get my CCJ set aside with consent (I want to use professional help to get it done without any mistakes

Hmmm...think hard about that.  We do set asides all the time and none are declined. 

The one person on here (just one) currently using a solicitor for their set aside is getting in a right pickle and was even told they are unlikely to get the CCJ set aside (according to that poster).  They'd find it so much simpler if they hadn't and we are telling them things their solicitor hasn't, because of niche knowledge we have about parking law.

Also getting this set aside with consent is going to cost you an arm and a leg (paying off the PPC pointlessly about £300, paying the £100 application fee and paying your solicitor).  Most people here do a contested set aside and get the £255 ordered to be paid back by the PPC, so they pay nothing.  They certainly don't pay the parking firm.

zoe21b

Johnersh said:

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news... 

Contrary, this is good news for me. Thanks. And thanks for correcting yourself.

Based on this feedback, I am assuming that the shortlisted legal company I'm considering using, who insist on £255 court fee AND N244 is more knowledgeable (about the law) than the one other I'm considering using who say £100 court fee and NO N244. In other words the '£255' company is not getting the basics wrong.

The other shortlisted legal company I'm considering using, who insist on £100 court fee and NO N244 might also be right that it works this way in real life but they never explained to me that the letter of the law is one thing but the reality is that one doesn't need to do it that way, so I have to assume that they probably are less knowledgeable (about the law) and yet may be more street smart because they manage to do it paying £155 less in court fees.

I feel both are professional in their interaction with me but now I can make a choice between these two attitudes to getting it done.

Redx

Good stuff , at least we are all learning something , no matter the source , it is a complicated legal issue and this is not a legal forum , it's a consumer rights forum. So good that you have more clarity

I know 2 qualified solicitors and neither are proficient in parking law issues , or CCJ s for that matter , they deal in criminal law , plus wills and probate and conveyancing , so they get my advice when it comes to private parking issues

Good luck in getting your problems sorted 👍👍

zoe21b

Coupon-mad said:

I'm doing due diligence on a couple of professionals to get my CCJ set aside with consent (I want to use professional help to get it done without any mistakes

Hmmm...think hard about that.  We do set asides all the time and none are declined. 

The one person on here (just one) currently using a solicitor for their set aside is getting in a right pickle and was even told they are unlikely to get the CCJ set aside (according to that poster).  They'd find it so much simpler if they hadn't and we are telling them things their solicitor hasn't, because of niche knowledge we have about parking law.

Also getting this set aside with consent is going to cost you an arm and a leg (paying off the PPC pointlessly about £300, paying the £100 application fee and paying your solicitor).  Most people here do a contested set aside and get the £255 ordered to be paid back by the PPC, so they pay nothing.  They certainly don't pay the parking firm.

OK, I get what you are saying. My reason for 'wanting' to use professional help for this is that I am completely swamped with varying degrees of statements from many sides (and I have little time to spend on getting the set aside issue sorted). With respect and no offence meant, I have no idea of which of these voices are people actually doing set asides OR people who states what they think without any practical experience OR trolls. Neither do I know how many CCJs a person here have successfully set aside (and how many fails) or if there are comparison to my CCJ that might skew the success ratio. But what I do know is if I do a mistake or pick the wrong legal help then I might well pay with it when I pass the pension age by having to keep paying rent instead of owning my own home. So it is a very big and important decision for me and I thought paying for professional help would at least get me to do this correctly (even if costing a several hundred pounds more - a fair amount of money for me but nonetheless small fry in the longer run of the cost of a mortgage).

On your second point, yes, I am fully aware and I agree. It pains me to pay any of this, at least any more than the original £60 cost had I received the paperwork. But I am partially at fault (I was unaware that I needed to get a new log book, totally my fault) so although I notified DVLA that I had moved and got a new licence, the log book was missed leading to the escalation from £60 to £185 and a CCJ. On the other hand if the most certain way of getting this done (getting the CCJ set aside and permanently removed) will cost me £185 (original judgment) plus £255 (court fee) plus the legal help cost (£££), so be it. But believe me, I would like to do it myself IF (A) I know exactly and unambiguously what to do and how to do it AND (B) that it has at least no higher risk of failing than going the arm and leg route - then I would do it. However, people are whispering that time is of essence and I feel more and more stressed about it because each day ticks by whilst I have been unable to establish both (A) and (B) to a satisfactory degree.

I have so many conflicting messages (fees and include or exclude N244 are just a couple). I have people saying I have a great defence since I haven't been served and I have others saying I have no defence cuz as long as I didn't have DVLA change the registered keepers address then it's my fault. I have some the PPC broke the law by not doing a trace shortly before going to court (which would, I understand, have shown my new address despite log book was old address) and I have others saying this is nonsense.

I would really like to see success vs failure to set aside stats for each of the many methods for my very common scenario...and especially for 'my' PPC. But I figure that would be very difficult to obtain.

In all this, I am not saying that anyone's advice is wrong (I wouldn't know, never dealt with a CCJ before), but I am saying that I am - in this case - incapable of determining what is useful and correct advice (correct in the way of maximising the chances of getting the CCJ set aside and go away) and what will cause me to self inflict and cause the inability to get a mortgage for years.

I am reluctant to gamble any more than I need to in this. Unfortunately, now when even legal advice is being questioned then I am even more at a loss.

If that wasn't enough, I am also upset with any judges who would turn down a set aside because it wasn't done within a few weeks of discovering the CCJ (such a short time limit on justice) especially it seems unfair since I have followed the advice by the court, then the PPC, then the SRA rules and now I might have burned a time constraint I didn't even know of. I am also upset with the judges who refuse to set aside due to credit washing. Damn right this is credit washing. Why should I be penalised for 6 years or many decades (the latter if I'm unable to afford a mortgage in 6 years due to property price increases) for something so small and insignificant as not knowing/forgetting to get the log book address updated (oh wait, short justice to rectify a wrong but years/decades penalties if I don't - it just doesn't feel right). And this is before even considering what many say, that this PPC is a rip-of and in-sincere business model. Anyway...enough for tonight.

Coupon-mad

But I am partially at fault (I was unaware that I needed to get a new log book, totally my fault) so although I notified DVLA that I had moved and got a new licence, the log book was missed 

But that's the same as in all the cases we help and they all get their CCJs set aside.  IMHO this is mainly the fault of the DVLA by not updating all databases and is possibly a data breach by the DVLA in not doing so. Basically they are handing out to parking firms and local authorities (and Police) addresses that they know to be wrong.  But that's another story.

But believe me, I would like to do it myself IF (A) I know exactly and unambiguously what to do and how to do it AND (B) that it has at least no higher risk of failing than going the arm and leg route - then I would do it.

OK, do it then! 

The NEWBIES thread examples show you unambiguously what to do.  There are two set aside thread examples linked there, both of which resulted in the PPC being told by the Judge to repay the £255 application fee.  Now that last bit doesn't always happen but CCJs are always set aside here.  Read any set aside threads, go back 20 or 30 pages on this parking forum and click on any thread with 'CCJ' in the title and you will find how to do it and also you will find the one where the person really should not have instructed a solicitor and is getting confused.  Normally, no-one gets that confused!

However, people are whispering that time is of essence and I feel more and more stressed about it because each day ticks by whilst I have been unable to establish both (A) and (B) to a satisfactory degree.

But reading any set aside threads shows you exactly what to do, especially if you read the replies by CCJ set aside guru, @henrik777. 

Basically, the steps are these:

(a)  To look reasonable (and because you never know) ask the PPC by email this week (without offering to pay the silly PCN) if they will consent to set aside because they failed to take reasonable steps to find you at your address and had reason to believe their letters were not reaching you, because of receiving no replies and knowing that DVLA data is unreliable in itself.  Asking them to consent to set aside has value to them because otherwise you will be making an N244 application at £255 and will seek those costs to be ordered against them.  Give them seven days to reply.

(b)  they will likely refuse or send you an offer to pay them - but don't do that unless it's very attractive AND you are happy that they will sign a consent order and are not just blagging it and asking for you to pay them to 'satisfy' the CCJ (which does not wipe it). 

(c) If they agree to consent to set aside, you fill in N244 saying you don't want a hearing and pay the court £100, and append a draft order like you see in other CCJ cases where people have agreed by consent.

(d) If they do not agree you crack on with your N244, £255 fee and a witness statement and evidence about having moved house and not receiving the claim (and also include your version of the template defence against the PCN, see top of the forum, to show the Judge you have good prospects of defending the PCN if the set aside is granted to allow you justice and the chance to defend that you always wanted, had you known about the claim).  This is just as you see in the more common CCJ threads, this has been done every week for years so you can just copy one and show us your WS.  Read a few while you are waiting for the PPC to reply to your email this week and you will know what I mean.

(e) At your telephone hearing you then explain your position and that you asked the PPC if they would consent (but they didn't reply/refused/wanted a silly amount in settlement for a PCN that you wish to defend).  Then you explain that you acted quickly, having heard about the CCJ only in (late April/ May 2021?) and point to the CPR 13 sections that are explained in your WS, and ask for a mandatory set aside, and failing that, a discretionary set aside so that you may defend the claim you never received.  And you respectfully ask the court to consider ordering the C to pay your £255 fees for failing to carry out any checks before issuing a claim to an unreliable DVLA address that they had obtained months/years before, and for being unreasonable if they didn't respond when you asked them to consent.

I have so many conflicting messages (fees and include or exclude N244 are just a couple).

Did you start off on another forum board?  Forget what they said, parking set asides are different, standard and are granted.  And yes you need a N244.  I have no idea what conflicting messages you are talking about otherwise.  There is no conflict here on this parking board and we do these every day.

I have people saying I have a great defence since I haven't been served and I have others saying I have no defence cuz as long as I didn't have DVLA change the registered keepers address then it's my fault.

That sounds like another forum board. Forget that, they are wrong.   Don't tar us with their brush.  There is no conflicting info on this sub-board.

Parking firm claims and CCJ are different because of their notorious conduct.   Even the Ministry of Justice knows about parking firms doing this deliberately!

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/action-to-make-the-process-fairer-on-debt-rulings

 https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/default-county-court-judgments-2/supporting_documents/defaultcountycourtjudgmentsconsultation.pdf

I would really like to see success vs failure to set aside stats for each of the many methods for my very common scenario...and especially for 'my' PPC. But I figure that would be very difficult to obtain.

Here are the stats:

100% wins, all set aside, for at least the past 3 or 4 years.  You are talking to regulars who come here every day and read every thread. NONE were refused from being set aside.  I say 'at least the past 3 or 4 years' because maybe 5 or 6 years ago I recall one wrongly refused by a Judge, but we've got better at quoting the Civil Procedure Rules since then and the idea is, you lead the Judge to the relevant CPR rules and must set the CCJ aside.

Really scared people have achieved CCJ set asides, literally quaking with fear on the phone.  But they ALL Get their CCJs set aside.

If that wasn't enough, I am also upset with any judges who would turn down a set aside because it wasn't done within a few weeks of discovering the CCJ (such a short time limit on justice)

When did you find out?  

Send the email to the PPC tomorrow morning (as advised by @henrik777 on all threads - email and ask if they will consent to set aside rather than face the prospect of being ordered to pay your £255 fee and attending a hearing over it).  

That is taking action, and so was seeking advice from solicitors.  You haven't sat on your hands for months, have you?

zoe21b

Coupon-mad said:

Wow, what a great an inspirational post. Thanks so much for taking the time.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are not really saying anything I haven't heard before but you did manage to get me to reconsider my options and focus on a specific path because you sound very convincing.

My biggest problem is availability of time combined with the perceived stringent timeline on making the set aside application promptly. Hence wanting to engage with professional services to do, presumably, all that you suggest with minimal involvement of my time - that's what I'm willing to pay good money for.

I now know that there are strict rules here on MSE and I hope my mere asking this question doesn't bring me or others into trouble. But is there any way it would possible to tell me how to identify one or more people/companies I can engage with to do this for me? I can't help sticking my neck out asking this but please, nobody answer if it might bring any adverse impact coming your way.

(a) To look reasonable (and because you never know) ask the PPC by email this week (without offering to pay the silly PCN) if they will consent to set aside because they failed to take reasonable steps to find you at your address and had reason to believe their letters were not reaching you, because of receiving no replies and knowing that DVLA data is unreliable in itself. Asking them to consent to set aside has value to them because otherwise you will be making an N244 application at £255 and will seek those costs@henrik777 ordered against them. Give them seven days to reply.

I have one other thread I've started some time back, that gives background and where I am to a certain point - in case anyone wish to capture the more detailed picture.

The first time I spoke with CCBC, they sent me the particulars (only) and said I should speak with the Claimant (the PPC, VCS). After waiting like 2 months on them (first the initial request for any info, then the SAR), they eventuall sent me to their legal reps (Elms), VCS told me on phone that I must deal with Elms re everything including any consent order. I have an agreed 8-step process with Elms and am currently on Step 2 waiting for me to either accept the consent order template they provided or propose changes.

The fact is that I have already engaged with Elms, have agreed a plan with them and have offered to pay the judgment £185 plus the £100 court fee. Does this in any way change your advice? Should I still go to VCS now? Should I say anything to Elms if I go directly to VCS with this more aggressive approach than I have previously adopted? Is it the most promising path to still continue doing what you say or should I choose a different path due to where I am? Paying the £185 + £100 would be fine for me, but I have pauses my action with Elms for now because I don't think they would be working for my interests so chances are if I just follow their demands then I'd be in a worse position later than I could be. Maybe irrational fear but I'm a sceptic when it comes to things like this. This is the cause of my first thread here and ultimately seeking professional assistance.

Did you start off on another forum board? Forget what they said, parking set asides are different, standard and are granted. And yes you need a N244. I have no idea what conflicting messages you are talking about otherwise. There is no conflict here on this parking board and we do these every day.

Yes, my initial post was on another board. Got little response and although helpful it didn't really address my question. So I came here, too, and yet even a third board. And then I have things I read on website and things coming back from legal companies I have approached. Many many conflicting messages from my pov (from many sources) but I get what you're saying.

That sounds like another forum board. Forget that, they are wrong. Don't tar us with their brush. There is no conflicting info on this sub-board.

Hehe, the first two sentences are similar to what one legal company said (who say will fix this but no guarantees, and at a great cost...which I am 'happy' to pay if I could trust they know what they are doing). These people are the ones who say they do this all the time and they don't send a N244. You start seeing why I am overwhelmed...

I don't tar anyone here or there. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

What my issue is (besides lack of time to do all this myself and meet the supposedly strict court timelines) is that I don't know who convincing arguments to trust. Everyone say 'trust me' and 'we know what we do' and yet from me they do things very differently. This is not a problem if all the methods works equally well. But some of the messages are that you do this then you may risk that (for example, if you send your defence with the N244, then you have used your defence in first round so if it not set aside you have no defence and hence your stuff. And not sending the N244 in first round then won't show that it is credit washing. And you may have to pay claimants costs. And so on.

Parking firm claims and CCJ are different because of their notorious conduct.

I start to gather that any standard solicitor type will tell me how to set aside a CCJ (after they have asked why I don't just pay it since £185 is less than the much more costly option of using them) without knowledge or experience of the PPC slant.

100% wins, all set aside, for at least the past 3 or 4 years. You are talking to regulars who come here every day and read every thread. NONE were refused from being set aside. I say 'at least the past 3 or 4 years' because maybe 5 or 6 years ago I recall one wrongly refused by a Judge, but we've got better at quoting the Civil Procedure Rules since then and the idea is, you lead the Judge to the relevant CPR rules and must set the CCJ aside.

Great, some stats! Now, 100% of how many would you guess? A handful, dozens, hundreds, thousands?

And how many and success ratio when it involves VCS?

I don't expect any precise numbers but some rough guesstimates may help. Indeed maybe if they board kept a Wins/Losses counter with each PPC then would be very useful.

When did you find out?

I discovered the CCJ in January 2021.
And only because was turned down for a credit card despite always paying all my bills (that I was aware of) in time.
So I won't be able to say I acted quickly as per your point (e).
Does this make any difference to the action recommended?

That is taking action, and so was seeking advice from solicitors. You haven't sat on your hands for months, have you?

Well, that depends who you ask (some say I should have acted quickly, that I only had about 3 weeks from mid-January - but I only learned about any time limit in May 2021 whilst reading posts). I don't think I have sat on my hands (I was following the logical path and waiting the time it took...until 23/04/21 when I posted my first post to get a view on if my approach with Elms is the best path...since then I've been reading & posting and seeking legal advice to get to a point where I can do the most optimal action. But the vast majority of the time from January until today has been waiting for response from VCS, then waiting for the SAR info from them (they sent it on, I think, the last day they were allowed to - so that alone was 1 month) and then trying to fit this in between my work...I cannot call and wait for 20-60 minutes with CCBC on working days so can only do it when I have a day off.

My view is that I just want to fix this while spending minimum time. I'm fine paying the judgment, I'm fine paying the £100 court fee (or £255 if should) and I'm fine paying £££ for legal help. But I need to know whom to use (and so far have failed in anything but confusing myself and burning you guys' time). You have helped me reset my focus, so if I take your word for gospel (and I am strongly inclined) then I might do it myself as per your recommended approach but I prefer not becuase I have been through the newbies, read many posts, read a number of Henrik777's etc...so my preferred option is paying someone to do this for me.

But my answers/questions in this post might mean that you think I should take a different approach.
 
So, if I can just ask for a bit more of your patience in responding to this then very appreciated.