TV License Second Home

Cornucopia

uk1 said:

Thanks all.
My reading of the guide as linked in my post of para 15 is that my stb needs to be inbuilt battery powered.  Have  I misunderstood?

Yes - you've misunderstood.   There are various exemptions and the exemption for watching commercial video-on-demand content applies everywhere, irrespective of the device being used or how it is connected to Power and Internet.  This exemption is about the types of content that do and don't require a Licence.

The exemption for battery-powered equipment applies where your main/permanent home has a Licence and you use battery-powered equipment to view any content outside that home.   This could include a Laptop or Tablet, but it cannot be mains-powered whilst being used for this purpose.   This exemption is based on the scope of a TV Licence to cover limited activities away from the main home.   

FaceHead

uk1 said:

mobileron said:

So who is going to catch you if you watch it,theres no such things as a detector van,you dont let anyone in,so wheres there proof.
Typre tv licence into youtube.

Hi,

Can’t they check iplayer users from their ip address which will give  map coordinates?

I wonder whether iplayer detects and records what device was used?  I can legitimately view iplayer and live tv from my laptop, but can iplayer differentiate I wonder.

The BBC would be able to differentiate between, say, the iPlayer app or a phone, a TV, a fire stick, a web browser etc. They would struggle to separate laptops from desktops, but could have a very good go at separating users into portable devices and non portable devices. 

An IP address will give only a very vague location without the cooperation of the ISP who would want a court order to cooperate. If the BBC went to court to ask for the physical addresses of the millions of IP addresses where non portable devices are being used so they can cross reference with license information, they would be unsuccessful. 

Cornucopia

uk1 said:

Can’t they check iplayer users from their ip address which will give  map coordinates?
I wonder whether iplayer detects and records what device was used?  I can legitimately view iplayer and live tv from my laptop, but can iplayer differentiate I wonder.

I imagine, as above, they possibly could.   In practice, though, there are sufficient legal, practical and technical impediments to mean that they don't.

The only thing they do (which tends to concern people) is to send emails to people who have used the same email address to complete the No Licence Needed form and their BBC ID, and then use the BBC ID to watch iPlayer.   Even then, it is far from being 100% proof of illegal activity.

uk1

Cornucopia said:

uk1 said:

Thanks all.
My reading of the guide as linked in my post of para 15 is that my stb needs to be inbuilt battery powered.  Have  I misunderstood?

Yes - you've misunderstood.   There are various exemptions and the exemption for watching commercial video-on-demand content applies everywhere, irrespective of the device being used or how it is connected to Power and Internet.  This exemption is about the types of content that do and don't require a Licence.

The exemption for battery-powered equipment applies where your main/permanent home has a Licence and you use battery-powered equipment to view any content outside that home.   This could include a Laptop or Tablet, but it cannot be mains-powered whilst being used for this purpose.   This exemption is based on the scope of a TV Licence to cover limited activities away from the main home.   

Many thanks for your patient and detailed response.

My main home is and always will be licensed.  My understanding is that my license allows me to use a laptop disconnected to mains to view all services in my second home.  I can connect it to the mains and recharge it  whilst in the second home, and then disconnect it and continue to use all services.  If the beeb logs iplayer activity this can legitimately be via my laptop.  

I can also use my bt youview box away from my  main home and connect it to mains to view prerecorded programmes made at my main home and view all catchup other than iplayer.

So in the event of the beeb logging iplayer activity at my second home and they intend to prosecute they would need to prove it was from a box that wasn’t battery powered and connected to the mains at the time. 

I do not seem to require a licence in my second home for this usage. 

Thanks again ..

Jeff

Mickey666

uk1 said:

Cornucopia said:

uk1 said:

Thanks all.
My reading of the guide as linked in my post of para 15 is that my stb needs to be inbuilt battery powered.  Have  I misunderstood?

Yes - you've misunderstood.   There are various exemptions and the exemption for watching commercial video-on-demand content applies everywhere, irrespective of the device being used or how it is connected to Power and Internet.  This exemption is about the types of content that do and don't require a Licence.

The exemption for battery-powered equipment applies where your main/permanent home has a Licence and you use battery-powered equipment to view any content outside that home.   This could include a Laptop or Tablet, but it cannot be mains-powered whilst being used for this purpose.   This exemption is based on the scope of a TV Licence to cover limited activities away from the main home.   

Many thanks for your patient and detailed response.

My main home is and always will be licensed.  My understanding is that my license allows me to use a laptop disconnected to mains to view all services in my second home.  I can connect it to the mains and recharge it  whilst in the second home, and then disconnect it and continue to use all services.  If the beeb logs iplayer activity this can legitimately be via my laptop.  I do not require a licence in my second home for this usage. 

Jeff

Yes, that's my understanding too - ridiculous though it is.
It's theoretically possible for the BBC to track an IP address to a physical property (though only with help from the ISP) but I'd be pretty amazed if they could determine if a laptop/tablet was plugged into the mains or not!

Incidentally, I believe the wording of the battery rule is something like 'equipment operated from a battery or batteries wholly contained within the equipment'.  The 'wholly contained' clause was included to get around people in caravans using a portable TV powered from their car battery.  Portable TVs that could run off 12v dc were common enough back in the 70s but few had internal batteries, so the "wholly contained" clause meant caravanners could not rely on their TV licence at their home address.

All completely out-of-date legislation now superseded by technology of course, but that the whole problem with the BBC licence fee - it's woefully out of date and in urgent need of radical reform, but successive governments have shied away for tacking the problem.

Just one other thought - there is an argument that even when plugged into a mains charger, a laptop/tablet/phone is actually STILL being powered by batteries 'wholly contained' within the equipment, it's just that the battery is being charged at the same time.  In old battery-operated equipment the internal batteries were physically disconnected by the insertion of the plug from an external power source, this the equipment would not longer be operating from a battery 'wholly contained' within the equiment.

But that is not the case with modern laptops/tablets/phones.  The equipment continues to be powered by the battery and the external power source simply charges that battery, but it does not disconnect it!   Obviously a technical loophole and I doubt it has been tested in court, but it's yet another example of how out of date the TV licencing legislation really is these days.

uk1

FaceHead said:

uk1 said:

mobileron said:

So who is going to catch you if you watch it,theres no such things as a detector van,you dont let anyone in,so wheres there proof.
Typre tv licence into youtube.

Hi,

Can’t they check iplayer users from their ip address which will give  map coordinates?

I wonder whether iplayer detects and records what device was used?  I can legitimately view iplayer and live tv from my laptop, but can iplayer differentiate I wonder.

The BBC would be able to differentiate between, say, the iPlayer app or a phone, a TV, a fire stick, a web browser etc. They would struggle to separate laptops from desktops, but could have a very good go at separating users into portable devices and non portable devices. 

An IP address will give only a very vague location without the cooperation of the ISP who would want a court order to cooperate. If the BBC went to court to ask for the physical addresses of the millions of IP addresses where non portable devices are being used so they can cross reference with license information, they would be unsuccessful. 

Often, just hitting the “thanks” button doesn’t seem sufficient.  So thanks!

Jeff

uk1

Mickey666 said:p

uk1 said:

Cornucopia said:

uk1 said:

Thanks all.
My reading of the guide as linked in my post of para 15 is that my stb needs to be inbuilt battery powered.  Have  I misunderstood?

Yes - you've misunderstood.   There are various exemptions and the exemption for watching commercial video-on-demand content applies everywhere, irrespective of the device being used or how it is connected to Power and Internet.  This exemption is about the types of content that do and don't require a Licence.

The exemption for battery-powered equipment applies where your main/permanent home has a Licence and you use battery-powered equipment to view any content outside that home.   This could include a Laptop or Tablet, but it cannot be mains-powered whilst being used for this purpose.   This exemption is based on the scope of a TV Licence to cover limited activities away from the main home.   

Many thanks for your patient and detailed response.

My main home is and always will be licensed.  My understanding is that my license allows me to use a laptop disconnected to mains to view all services in my second home.  I can connect it to the mains and recharge it  whilst in the second home, and then disconnect it and continue to use all services.  If the beeb logs iplayer activity this can legitimately be via my laptop.  I do not require a licence in my second home for this usage. 

Jeff

Yes, that's my understanding too - ridiculous though it is.
It's theoretically possible for the BBC to track an IP address to a physical property (though only with help from the ISP) but I'd be pretty amazed if they could determine if a laptop/tablet was plugged into the mains or not!

Incidentally, I believe the wording of the battery rule is something like 'equipment operated from a battery or batteries wholly contained within the equipment'.  The 'wholly contained' clause was included to get around people in caravans using a portable TV powered from their car battery.  Portable TVs that could run off 12v dc were common enough back in the 70s but few had internal batteries, so the "wholly contained" clause meant caravanners could not rely on their TV licence at their home address.

All completely out-of-date legislation now superseded by technology of course, but that the whole problem with the BBC licence fee - it's woefully out of date and in urgent need of radical reform, but successive governments have shied away for tacking the problem.

Just one other thought - there is an argument that even when plugged into a mains charger, a laptop/tablet/phone is actually STILL being powered by batteries 'wholly contained' within the equipment, it's just that the battery is being charged at the same time.  In old battery-operated equipment the internal batteries were physically disconnected by the insertion of the plug from an external power source, this the equipment would not longer be operating from a battery 'wholly contained' within the equiment.

But that is not the case with modern laptops/tablets/phones.  The equipment continues to be powered by the battery and the external power source simply charges that battery, but it does not disconnect it!   Obviously a technical loophole and I doubt it has been tested in court, but it's yet another example of how out of date the TV licencing legislation really is these days.

Many thanks for the points.

I’m paying my license fee on my main home under protest but given all about my situation I’m clearly not a license avoider and at a time of easier low branch easier fruit for prosecution I can’t see that I’m at any real risk. I’m angry but perhaps laid back about paying a fee for my main home but as I only watch tv at one home at a time but paying over £300 per year for services I largely despise and don’t use I’ll do anything I can to resist the fee for the second home.  

It is a principle. 

Cornucopia

uk1 said:

My main home is and always will be licensed.  My understanding is that my license allows me to use a laptop disconnected to mains to view all services in my second home.  I can connect it to the mains and recharge it  whilst in the second home, and then disconnect it and continue to use all services.  If the beeb logs iplayer activity this can legitimately be via my laptop.  

Correct.

I can also use my bt youview box away from my main home and connect it to mains to view prerecorded programmes made at my main home and view all catchup other than iplayer.

Yes.

So in the event of the beeb logging iplayer activity at my second home and they intend to prosecute they would need to prove it was from a box that wasn’t battery powered and connected to the mains at the time.

As I said, they simply don't do anything as sophisticated as that. The main enforcement route (yet another anachronism) is sending people round effectively to ask people without Licences whether they are evading or not. It's best practice to be wary of these people (don't let them in, don't answer questions and don't sign anything). It's completely lawful simply to tell them to go away. When they visit, it's unlikely that they will have any info on anything with the possible exception of your name and the expiry date of your previous Licence.

I do not seem to require a licence in my second home for this usage.

I don't think you do.

Carrot007

uk1 said:
Can’t they check iplayer users from their ip address which will give  map coordinates?

Well an IP will give some co-oprdinates of your ISP of a datacentre most likely. Asking your ISP (which they do not do) witha  court order would get them your IP at the time of use. But nothing stopping you going though a VPN to france and then doubling it back to the uk, decent VPNs dont keep records (and each IP has multiple users anyway).

However i think the important thing to say here is. No don't get a second license, unless you expect to watch tv in both homes at once it is ridiculous. At that is coming from me the most happy to pay the licence person there is (I think it should be in the council tax to just end confusion, but not under this goverment of fools ey!). All you need to do is:

1. Bin the you need a license letters. Just my view but filling them in just causes more issues and may prompt a visit.

2. If anyone comes round to intimidate you. And yes that is what they do. Do not let them in. Tell them to jog on. Call the police if they do not. (though really do not be watching tv at that point, the police as ever are a wild card).

uk1

Many thanks to all who were patient to educate me!