Seiss grant 4

MattMattMattUK

ScoobyJas said:

Why did i not receive the paper tax return long before the 31st January anyway. Why was it sent out so late to me in the first place?

You would have to ask HMRC and/or examine what information was passed to HMRC about your bankruptcy. 

ScoobyJas said:

Surely HMRC sending me out the return so late in the first place is negligence on their part. If i had received in when i should have done i wouldn't be in this position now  

You could have, at any time, downloaded a paper tax return from the HMRC website, completed it, printed (or printed it and completed it by hand) and then sent it in (by normal or registered post). Whilst it is unfortunate and I would be appealing again (more in hope than expectation), I am really not sure how you can hold HMRC responsible, even more so when you had two weeks from receipt to have submitted it in time for SEISS.

Pennywise

macman said:

ScoobyJas said:

Jeremy535897 said:

I don't think there is anything you can do. I assume you just sent the return in via ordinary post?

yes normal post as i was well within the latest date to send in.
I did not know that Mr Sunak was going to announce march 2nd date

But, until he announced the extension, the date was still 31/1/21. It was already too late when you received the paper return in mid-Feb,
As others have advised, you've nothing to lose by appealing, but you'll have to demonstrate a failing by HMRC, rather than asking for a discretionary waiver.

No, the deadline is 3 months from the date of issue of a notice to submit a tax return/or issue of the tax return, which can be after the usual 31 January deadline if HMRC issue it less than 3 months before the deadline.

It seems the OP met the SA submission deadline (extended because it was issued late) but didn't meet the "new" deadline for the SEISS cut off.  

Two different deadlines.

Unfortunately, though, the OP is just another one who's fallen through the cracks due to no fault of your own.  HMRC/Treasury/Rishi aren't offering any concessions or waivers, unless, as said above, it can be proved that the error is within HMRC.

Pennywise

ScoobyJas said:

Why did i not receive the paper tax return long before the 31st January anyway. Why was it sent out so late to me in the first place?
Surely HMRC sending me out the return so late in the first place is negligence on their part. If i had received in when i should have done i wouldn't be in this position now  

Well that is your "defence" when you submit your appeal.  Turn it around to blame HMRC and hope it sticks.  Provide the date on which you "registered" with HMRC under your new UTR, the date the tax return was issued, the date you received it, and the date you posted it back.  It's doubtful whether HMRC will agree the appeal, but it's worth a try.  If not, then write to your MP as the more "excluded" who kick up a fuss and complain to their MPs, the more chance that more MPs will get involved in challenging HMRC and Rishi.

ScoobyJas

Pennywise said:

ScoobyJas said:

Why did i not receive the paper tax return long before the 31st January anyway. Why was it sent out so late to me in the first place?
Surely HMRC sending me out the return so late in the first place is negligence on their part. If i had received in when i should have done i wouldn't be in this position now  

Well that is your "defence" when you submit your appeal.  Turn it around to blame HMRC and hope it sticks.  Provide the date on which you "registered" with HMRC under your new UTR, the date the tax return was issued, the date you received it, and the date you posted it back.  It's doubtful whether HMRC will agree the appeal, but it's worth a try.  If not, then write to your MP as the more "excluded" who kick up a fuss and complain to their MPs, the more chance that more MPs will get involved in challenging HMRC and Rishi.

where would i find out when the new UTR took effect? Sorry i am new to all of this. Also how would i go about appealing to HMRC

MattMattMattUK

ScoobyJas said:

Pennywise said:

ScoobyJas said:

Why did i not receive the paper tax return long before the 31st January anyway. Why was it sent out so late to me in the first place?
Surely HMRC sending me out the return so late in the first place is negligence on their part. If i had received in when i should have done i wouldn't be in this position now  

Well that is your "defence" when you submit your appeal.  Turn it around to blame HMRC and hope it sticks.  Provide the date on which you "registered" with HMRC under your new UTR, the date the tax return was issued, the date you received it, and the date you posted it back.  It's doubtful whether HMRC will agree the appeal, but it's worth a try.  If not, then write to your MP as the more "excluded" who kick up a fuss and complain to their MPs, the more chance that more MPs will get involved in challenging HMRC and Rishi.

where would i find out when the new UTR took effect? Sorry i am new to all of this. Also how would i go about appealing to HMRC

The old UTR would cover up until the period you were declared bankruptcy (and then in accordance with additional guidance from the court, if issued). The new UTR would be for any post bankruptcy filing. As your bankruptcy spanned two tax years it seems to me that 19/20 should have been filed under the old UTR, I am unclear on 20/21 and 21/22 would be under the new UTR. If I were you I would be asking your practitioner for advice regarding this. 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/self-assessment-manual/sam106030

Edit: This is outside of my understanding, so I can only go by what I can read online, I think you should probably take specialist advice and ring the HMRC helpline to ask for clarification on which UTR for which tax year. 

sparklep0ny

ScoobyJas said:

I could not do anything online as i was bankrupt. I have just got off the phone to Self Assessment team and they issued the return on 21st January, do not know when they actually posted it. So clearly i did not just "sit on it" as you put

I'm fully aware you were bankrupt, my eyes do in fact work. If you read what I wrote you will see I was not referring to YOU filing online.

I also did not say you sat on the return, if you read what I wrote. I said you COULD have sat on it.

To repeat what I said in the hopes it might sink in this time, you can't say "this would not have happened if they'd sent it earlier."   It clearly COULD have done. It was not a forgone conclusion that you would have returned in on time.

ScoobyJas

When I was speaking to the SEISS chat advisor after finding out my eligibility for grant they said that they would file for a review but asked me for no reasons whatsoever for the review of the decision. The review answer was therefore still the same. Surely this isn't right or fair

MattMattMattUK

ScoobyJas said:

When I was speaking to the SEISS chat advisor after finding out my eligibility for grant they said that they would file for a review but asked me for no reasons whatsoever for the review of the decision. The review answer was therefore still the same.

I think you first need to establish which UTR should have been used for each year, ringing HMRC to confirm is probably the best route for that answer.

After that you can decide if you want to appeal again or not, you can present your case. I do not think you will succeed, but as all it will cost you is a small amount of time it is worth the effort.

ScoobyJas said:

Surely this isn't right or fair

Right is the application of the law, which is all HMRC will be able to do, they can not make decisions about SEISS that to not comply with the legislation. Fair is a pointless concept, some people got more help than they needed, others got nothing, fairness does not come into it, just the law as written. 

sheramber

MattMattMattUK said:

The old UTR would cover up until the period you were declared bankruptcy (and then in accordance with additional guidance from the court, if issued). The new UTR would be for any post bankruptcy filing. As your bankruptcy spanned two tax years it seems to me that 19/20 should have been filed under the old UTR, I am unclear on 20/21 and 21/22 would be under the new UTR. If I were you I would be asking your practitioner for advice regarding this. 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/self-assessment-manual/sam106030

Edit: This is outside of my understanding, so I can only go by what I can read online, I think you should probably take specialist advice and ring the HMRC helpline to ask for clarification on which UTR for which tax year. 

While the income for 2019/20 is declared on the old UTR the return must be issued manually. It cannot be done online 

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/self-assessment-manual/sam106030

For the year of bankruptcy, the pre-bankruptcy SA record will be used for the issue and capture of the manual tax return. This return cannot be completed online. The paper copy must be completed and captured. The full year’s income should be declared on this return. The tax returns for the years following the year of bankruptcy will be issued from the post-bankruptcy SA record.

The issue of the tax return from the pre-bankruptcy record must be issued manually to the taxpayer.

ScoobyJas

MattMattMattUK said:

ScoobyJas said:

When I was speaking to the SEISS chat advisor after finding out my eligibility for grant they said that they would file for a review but asked me for no reasons whatsoever for the review of the decision. The review answer was therefore still the same.

I think you first need to establish which UTR should have been used for each year, ringing HMRC to confirm is probably the best route for that answer.

After that you can decide if you want to appeal again or not, you can present your case. I do not think you will succeed, but as all it will cost you is a small amount of time it is worth the effort.

ScoobyJas said:

Surely this isn't right or fair

Right is the application of the law, which is all HMRC will be able to do, they can not make decisions about SEISS that to not comply with the legislation. Fair is a pointless concept, some people got more help than they needed, others got nothing, fairness does not come into it, just the law as written. 

I am on the phone now waiting to speak to them about which UTR they have used for the 19/20 return.