Question about HMO licence

tallac

Voyager2002 said:

tallac said:

I'm looking at helping a family member with doing some landlord management and I'm looking at the rules for HMO licence.

The reason why there's doubt is that a local estate agent said that a HMO would be required if 3 separate unrelated adults wanted to rent. But this contradicts the Barnet page so I'm thinking they probably made a mistake.

Is any able to confirm my understanding?

Why don't you simply contact the council and ask their opinion?

Council officers are generally helpful, and even if you disagreed with what they said you would be far better equipped to go forward once you understood the way they see things and make decision.

I have tried, the phone number for the council goes unanswered despite numerous calls. I've sent them an email on their special HMO email address but no reply yet. I'll chase them up though.

But just to be clear, a group of 4 adults who are unrelated but know each other (e.g. a group of friends or colleagues) who rent the property is considered a single household? i.e. they would be considered the same as a family of 4 adults?

macman

tallac said:

Voyager2002 said:

tallac said:

I'm looking at helping a family member with doing some landlord management and I'm looking at the rules for HMO licence.

The reason why there's doubt is that a local estate agent said that a HMO would be required if 3 separate unrelated adults wanted to rent. But this contradicts the Barnet page so I'm thinking they probably made a mistake.

Is any able to confirm my understanding?

Why don't you simply contact the council and ask their opinion?

Council officers are generally helpful, and even if you disagreed with what they said you would be far better equipped to go forward once you understood the way they see things and make decision.

I have tried, the phone number for the council goes unanswered despite numerous calls. I've sent them an email on their special HMO email address but no reply yet. I'll chase them up though.

But just to be clear, a group of 4 adults who are unrelated but know each other (e.g. a group of friends or colleagues) who rent the property is considered a single household? i.e. they would be considered the same as a family of 4 adults?

Generally, if they are on a joint tenancy, yes. You don't have to be related by blood or marriage to form a 'family' in this context. 

[Deleted User]

tallac said:

Voyager2002 said:

tallac said:

I'm looking at helping a family member with doing some landlord management and I'm looking at the rules for HMO licence.

The reason why there's doubt is that a local estate agent said that a HMO would be required if 3 separate unrelated adults wanted to rent. But this contradicts the Barnet page so I'm thinking they probably made a mistake.

Is any able to confirm my understanding?

Why don't you simply contact the council and ask their opinion?

Council officers are generally helpful, and even if you disagreed with what they said you would be far better equipped to go forward once you understood the way they see things and make decision.

I have tried, the phone number for the council goes unanswered despite numerous calls. I've sent them an email on their special HMO email address but no reply yet. I'll chase them up though.

But just to be clear, a group of 4 adults who are unrelated but know each other (e.g. a group of friends or colleagues) who rent the property is considered a single household? i.e. they would be considered the same as a family of 4 adults?

On the Barnet HMO page which has already been linked to, under download documents, it has a link to HMO Definitions of terms.  In the HMO Definitions of terms is says....

Definition of household

A household is defined as persons: - 

• who are all members of the same family (including single persons, couples and same sex couples) 

• who have other relationships, such as fostering, carers and domestic staff 

For a more detailed definition, please refer to Section 258 of the Housing Act 2004.

So in answer to your question, no a group of 4 unrelated adults would not be considered a single household.

MaryNB

macman said:

tallac said:

Voyager2002 said:

tallac said:

I'm looking at helping a family member with doing some landlord management and I'm looking at the rules for HMO licence.

The reason why there's doubt is that a local estate agent said that a HMO would be required if 3 separate unrelated adults wanted to rent. But this contradicts the Barnet page so I'm thinking they probably made a mistake.

Is any able to confirm my understanding?

Why don't you simply contact the council and ask their opinion?

Council officers are generally helpful, and even if you disagreed with what they said you would be far better equipped to go forward once you understood the way they see things and make decision.

I have tried, the phone number for the council goes unanswered despite numerous calls. I've sent them an email on their special HMO email address but no reply yet. I'll chase them up though.

But just to be clear, a group of 4 adults who are unrelated but know each other (e.g. a group of friends or colleagues) who rent the property is considered a single household? i.e. they would be considered the same as a family of 4 adults?

Generally, if they are on a joint tenancy, yes. You don't have to be related by blood or marriage to form a 'family' in this context. 

The Housing Act doesn't state a household can formed by a joint tenancy.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258

Several sources say a people on a joint tenancy can still form a HMO. 

 "Some HMO properties are let with a joint tenancy. This means different tenants/households share the same tenancy and all rights and responsibilities which are derived from it"

https://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/what-is-a-house-in-multiple-occupation-hmo/#individual_or_joint_tenancy_agreements

www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/hmo-tenancies-types/

https://landlordlawblog.co.uk/2017/06/08/hmo-management-regulations-apply-joint-tenants/

tallac

This:

macman said:

You don't have to be related by blood or marriage to form a 'family' in this context. 

and this:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

So in answer to your question, no a group of 4 unrelated adults would not be considered a single household.

seem to contradict each other. I'm confused.

Keeping it simple, 4 mates who have known each other for years, they are from different families. They want to house share in a rented accommodation under a joint tenancy agreement. Do I need any kind of HMO (whether it is Large HMO or an Additional HMO)?

MaryNB

tallac said:

This:

macman said:

You don't have to be related by blood or marriage to form a 'family' in this context. 

and this:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

So in answer to your question, no a group of 4 unrelated adults would not be considered a single household.

seem to contradict each other. I'm confused.

Keeping it simple, 4 mates who have known each other for years, they are from different families. They want to house share in a rented accommodation under a joint tenancy agreement. Do I need any kind of HMO (whether it is Large HMO or an Additional HMO)?

Lover_of_Lycra quotes your council and provides a link to Barnet Council's definitions of a HMO. Surely that answers your question.
It is a HMO unless the lodgers/tenants have one of the relationships listed below.

Definition of household
A household is defined as persons: - 

• who are all members of the same family (including single persons, couples and same sex couples) 

• who have other relationships, such as fostering, carers and domestic staff 

For a more detailed definition, please refer to Section 258 of the Housing Act 2004.

Wanderingpomm

tallac said:

This:

macman said:

You don't have to be related by blood or marriage to form a 'family' in this context. 

and this:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

So in answer to your question, no a group of 4 unrelated adults would not be considered a single household.

seem to contradict each other. I'm confused.

Keeping it simple, 4 mates who have known each other for years, they are from different families. They want to house share in a rented accommodation under a joint tenancy agreement. Do I need any kind of HMO (whether it is Large HMO or an Additional HMO)?

Yes it’s a HMO. They are not related. You can have a single tenancy though. 

Whether you need a HMO licence will depend on area. It would be additional HMO if you did as it’s 4 people or less. 

On the Barnet website it is a small HMO as it is more than 2 people, you need an additional licence for renting with either 3 or 4 bedrooms. 

For council tax; If the tenancy is joint then they are liable. If you are renting by the room the LL has to pay. 

MaryNB

Wanderingpomm said:

tallac said:

This:

macman said:

You don't have to be related by blood or marriage to form a 'family' in this context. 

and this:

Lover_of_Lycra said:

So in answer to your question, no a group of 4 unrelated adults would not be considered a single household.

seem to contradict each other. I'm confused.

Keeping it simple, 4 mates who have known each other for years, they are from different families. They want to house share in a rented accommodation under a joint tenancy agreement. Do I need any kind of HMO (whether it is Large HMO or an Additional HMO)?

Yes it’s a HMO. They are not related. You can have a single tenancy though. 

Whether you need a HMO licence will depend on area. It would be additional HMO if you did as it’s 4 people or less. 

On the Barnet website it is a small HMO as it is more than 2 people, you need an additional licence for renting with either 3 or 4 bedrooms. 

For council tax; If the tenancy is joint then they are liable. If you are renting by the room the LL has to pay. 

It's not based on the number of rooms. If the tenants consist of two couples using two bedrooms and there was no family connection between the couples and they were living in a two story building or in a flat that is on the second storey or higher, that would be a HMO requiring an additional licence under Barnet's rules. 

If it was a large single family (e.g parents and their children) renting 3 or 4 bedrooms it would not be an HMO.

tallac said:

Keeping it simple, 4 mates who have known each other for years, they are from different families. They want to house share in a rented accommodation under a joint tenancy agreement. Do I need any kind of HMO (whether it is Large HMO or an Additional HMO)?

The short version:

Yes, it is meets the definition of a HMO. 
You do not require a Mandatory Licence because there are fewer than 5 people and not classed as large HMO.
You do require an Additional Licence under Barnet rules if the four people live in a 2 storey building, or in a 2nd storey flat or higher (see Additional Licencing Requirements for the full list) 



The long version:

Definition of a household
They consist of four households under the Barnet definition of a household. The definition is as per the Housing Act 2004 section 258 (which applies to England and Wales) so is not exclusive to Barnet. Type of tenancy is irrelevant.
    HMO Definitions of terms
    Housing Act 2004 HMOs: persons not forming a single household

Definition of household
A household is defined as persons: - 

• who are all members of the same family (including single persons, couples and same sex couples) 

• who have other relationships, such as fostering, carers and domestic staff 

Definition of a HMO
It meets the definitions of a basic/small HMO under the government rules so this could impact on your mortgage etc. 
   Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

Your property is an HMO if both of the following apply:

• at least 3 tenants live there, forming more than one household

• toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities are shared

Definition of a HMO requiring a Mandatory Licence in England and Wales 
Government regulation all councils in England and Wales must follow.
You do not require a Mandatory Licence for just four tenants.
Number of storeys used to be taken into account for a mandatory licence but that is no longer the case.
House in multiple occupation licence

You must have a licence if you’re renting out a large HMO in England or Wales. Your property is defined as a large HMO if all of the following apply:

• it is rented to 5 or more people who form more than 1 household

• some or all tenants share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities

• at least 1 tenant pays rent (or their employer pays it for them)

Definition of a HMO requiring an Additional Licence under Barnet Council
Councils are free to introduce additional licencing.
According to Barnet Council you need a HMO Licence if your 4 unrelated tenants live in a property that falls under any of the following.
Additional HMO Licence

An HMO needs an Additional Licence when:

• it has 2 or more storeys, occupied by four or more persons in 2 or more households and where some or all facilities are shared or lacking

• It has 2 or more storeys, with a resident owner and is occupied by 4 or more other persons in 2 or more households and where some or all facilities are shared or lacking

• it is a flat occupied by 4 or more persons in 2 or more households and where some or all facilities are shared or lacking and where the flat is on the second storey or higher

• It is a building of 3 or more storeys that have been converted into and consist of 4 or more self-contained flats where the conversion was not undertaken in accordance with the Building Regulations 1991 (or later) and fail still to so comply; and where both the building and flats it contains are owned by the same person (none of the individual flats within the building being under separate ownership)

• It is a house of 2 or more storeys comprised of both self-contained and non self-contained units of accommodation occupied in aggregate by 4 or more persons in 2 or more households (not including a resident owner), some of whom share or lack one or more basic amenities such as a bathroom, toilet or cooking facilities.

Some means 1 or more of the basic amenities referred to above including a bathroom, toilet or cooking facilities.