Question about HMO licence

tallac

AdrianC said:

tallac said:

How do existing landlords deal with this where they have just a single property but have 3 or 4 unrelated people who rent out the property?

Living as a single household, or as 3 or 4 separate ones?

A house-share is a single tenancy, one household.

An HMO is multiple tenancies, multiple households.

So I'm confused. Not very realistic but please indulge me with this example to help me understand:

Say I have a 4 bedroom house, and 4 strangers decide to house share. Each have their own bedroom but kitchen, bathroom and dining area is shared. If there is a single tenancy agreement and they are all joint tenants on that one agreement, does that require a HMO? Or is that equivalent to a single 4 person family renting the house?

My understanding (which might be wrong) was that if I wanted a solo adult tenant in each of the bedrooms, then I would need a HMO whether it is a shared tenancy agreement or if I had 4 separate tenancy agreements for each person.

macman

What you describe in para 2 is not an HMO. It's one 'family' with a single tenancy agreement. In this context a 'family' doesn't have to be a 'family 'in the sense of couples living together.
They might have been strangers beforehand, but in jointly and severally contracting to a joint tenancy, they've formed a 'family'.

Ratkin007

A HMO is 3 or more persons in 2 or more households. I'm surprised Barnet say 4 persons.  However as MaryNB says, there can be unlicensable HMOs. If looking at 3 bed, may be best to confirm with Barnet whether a licence is required. Another thing to consider is that planning permission will be required if the property is currently or recently used as family accommodation. It is irrelevant whether individual tenancies or joint tenancie are given, it is about the relationship of the occupants.  

MaryNB

AdrianC said:

tallac said:

How do existing landlords deal with this where they have just a single property but have 3 or 4 unrelated people who rent out the property?

Living as a single household, or as 3 or 4 separate ones?

A house-share is a single tenancy, one household.

An HMO is multiple tenancies, multiple households.

I don't think this is correct. At my previous address the letting agency got an HMO licence even though the four of were all on the same tenancy.

"Some HMO properties are let with a joint tenancy. This means different tenants/households share the same tenancy and all rights and responsibilities which are derived from it"

https://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/what-is-a-house-in-multiple-occupation-hmo/#individual_or_joint_tenancy_agreements

ETA: https://www.thetenantsvoice.co.uk/advice_from_us/hmo-tenancies-types/

https://landlordlawblog.co.uk/2017/06/08/hmo-management-regulations-apply-joint-tenants/

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258

MaryNB

Ratkin007 said:

A HMO is 3 or more persons in 2 or more households. I'm surprised Barnet say 4 persons.  However as MaryNB says, there can be unlicensable HMOs. If looking at 3 bed, may be best to confirm with Barnet whether a licence is required. Another thing to consider is that planning permission will be required if the property is currently or recently used as family accommodation. It is irrelevant whether individual tenancies or joint tenancie are given, it is about the relationship of the occupants.  

It's a very poorly written page but I believe the 4 person definition (with references to storeys) applies to Barnet's additional licencing requirements. 

I took from it that just 3 people would be classed as a small HMO not requiring. licence. Although they don't actually specify 3 so I would refer to the gov website for this. 

AdrianC

MaryNB said:

AdrianC said:

tallac said:

How do existing landlords deal with this where they have just a single property but have 3 or 4 unrelated people who rent out the property?

Living as a single household, or as 3 or 4 separate ones?

A house-share is a single tenancy, one household.

An HMO is multiple tenancies, multiple households.

I don't think this is correct. At my previous address the letting agency got an HMO licence even though the four of were all on the same tenancy.

Somebody can, of course, apply for a licence that isn't needed.

MaryNB

AdrianC said:

MaryNB said:

AdrianC said:

tallac said:

How do existing landlords deal with this where they have just a single property but have 3 or 4 unrelated people who rent out the property?

Living as a single household, or as 3 or 4 separate ones?

A house-share is a single tenancy, one household.

An HMO is multiple tenancies, multiple households.

I don't think this is correct. At my previous address the letting agency got an HMO licence even though the four of were all on the same tenancy.

Somebody can, of course, apply for a licence that isn't needed.

But in that case it was needed because finding a person on a housesharing website doesn't fit the definition of a relationship under the Housing Act 2004 and therefore we didn't form a household. 

[Deleted User]

I was pretty sure that you can still have an HMO with 1 tenancy agreement in place, if the definition of HMO is met. I do not think the question of how many households are involved is determined by how many tenancy agreements are in place.

Wanderingpomm

I have a 3 bed HMO which needs a licence because it’s in wales. I put them all
on a single tenancy and they are all jointly liable for the rent. The only bill I pay is council tax. They pay all the others.
you need to do all the checks but it’s not any harder than renting out any other property. 

Voyager2002

tallac said:

I'm looking at helping a family member with doing some landlord management and I'm looking at the rules for HMO licence.

The reason why there's doubt is that a local estate agent said that a HMO would be required if 3 separate unrelated adults wanted to rent. But this contradicts the Barnet page so I'm thinking they probably made a mistake.

Is any able to confirm my understanding?

Why don't you simply contact the council and ask their opinion?

Council officers are generally helpful, and even if you disagreed with what they said you would be far better equipped to go forward once you understood the way they see things and make decision.