Looking for advice on next steps .. VCS Parking Fine

dav3

Hi There,
I received a parking fine from VCS for overstaying a 2 hour limit in a retail park. There were actual mitigating circumstance (4 year old daughter was sick when returning to car had to go toilets and buy change of clothes.)  I appealed to the IAS requesting it was cancelled due to mitigating circumstances, the appeal was swiftly rejected (as I see happens to most others...)

Since the appeal there have been several bullying letters threatening CCJs etc , and at this point I have now received a 'Notification Of Instruction' from 'ELMS Legal'. The original fine was for £100 if I recall correctly , maybe with an option to pay half if early .... 
Here's the most recent letter 


I'm wondering what my next action should be ... 
* Do I need to contact ELMS Legal ?
* My wife is due to have a baby imminently , I could do without the stress of this if I was to contact ELMS and offer them 50% to go away would this likely be agreed to ?
* If I decide not to pay whats the maximum this could cost after a court loss ?
* What are my chances of winning a court case, in the eyes of the law I probably did overstay right ? My grievance is more related to a lack of empathy and the link between VCS and the phony appeal process.
* I haven't contacted the landowner, i'm not sure where to find this info , if I was to and it takes more than 14 days then would ELMS might start the court proceedings anyway ?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Fruitcake

It is not a fine.

If you have received a LBC giving you 30 days to respond, you should now be following the guide to court written by bargepole that you will find in the second post of the NEWBIES. If the LBC gave you fourteen days or similar and didn't contain financial forms (that you must not fill in) then it is a debt crawler letter, not a genuine LBC.
The fourth post of the NEWBIERS explains why it is safe to ignore powerless debt collectors. Do not ignore real court papers.

At most a loss in court will cost you £175-£200 max, if defended properly. If you win, you could get up to £95 awarded to you.

To find the landowner, ask the council who pays the non-domestic business rates for the land, or pay the Land Registry a few quid to get a copy of the ownership details.

Complain to manager and or CEO of all stores visited and any others as well.

Get pics of the site and signage. Please tell us where this occurred as well.

Redx

No , but I would try to get the retail park managing agent or landowner to cancel the PCN asap , known as plan A in the newbies FAQ sticky thread near the top of the forum. I would also get the recipient of the letters to email a SAR to the DPO at VCS

Read posts 2 & 4 of the newbies FAQ sticky thread

No they won't accept 50% , it's all or nothing , making gestures will be taken as weakness , they don't care about having babies or mitigation

A typical court loss is about £200 for one PCN

Nobody can tell you the chances of winning in court , not even a foolish person , it's a lottery , judge bingo

Definitely contact the M A of the retail park , or the landowner , or both , should have been done at the time , it is never too late

Umkomaas

It's a debt collector letter, read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, fourth post, about dealing with one of those. It may lead to a court claim, deal with that if/when it comes, but do some advance reading via the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, second post, to prepare you should it happen. 

Chances in court - depends on the quality of your defence, Witness Statement and evidence and the strength of the claimant's case against you. Where motorists have fully followed the advice and guidance of the forum, the vast majority are successful either at a court hearing, or via a claimant discontinuation when they realise that the defendant has put work into their defence etc, and are likely to defeat them at a hearing. 

If I decide not to pay whats the maximum this could cost after a court loss ?

COSTS OF LOSING IN COURT

this is typically broken down as :-

£100 - original parking charge
£25 - court filing fee
£50 - solicitor costs for preparing case papers (maximum, capped)
£25 - hearing fee, if it gets that far
Maybe £7 or £8 interest, depends how long it's been since the original charge.

So not much more than £200 - IF YOU LOSE!

Anything else they try to add will be spurious and must be challenged with the Judge. Please read the Excel v Wilkinson judgment thread which threw out an entire case because of the 'add-ons'. It won't necessarily cause your entire case to be dismissed, but it should put pay to any 'double recovery' charges. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/16qovzulab1szem/G4QZ465V%20Excel%20v%20Wilkinson.pdf?dl=0

The other side may also apply for further costs for unreasonable behaviour, but that is a high bar, and only applies if you have failed to comply with court orders, such as not meeting deadline dates.  Read all the documentation you get from the court very carefully and comply with all its requirements. I don't think I've ever seen a PPC win unreasonable behaviour costs. 

IF YOU WIN - none of the above will be payable by you. But you could claim:

£95 capped maximum for loss of earnings/annual leave for half a day (take pay slips for proof)
Travel costs - public transport or mileage x 45p per mile
Parking costs.

If the PPC has been wholly unreasonable in dealing with the court, then costs awarded against them could be considerably more, but, again, the bar is set very high. We would advise nearer the time if we think this is worth you pursuing.

My grievance is more related to a lack of empathy and the link between VCS and the phony appeal process.

Forget that!  They are not required to show any empathy. Empathy on their part doesn't earn them income. Almost every motorist would throw them a line seeking 'empathy' if it means avoiding a £100 slap. 

I haven't contacted the landowner, i'm not sure where to find this info , if I was to and it takes more than 14 days then would ELMS might start the court proceedings anyway ?

This is your best chance to get this knocked on the head. The landowner is from whom to seek empathy. It will be months (autumn/winter perhaps) before this would get anywhere near a hearing - although the process leading to one might start in the next few weeks. 

SOME IDEAS ON DETERMINING WHO OWNS THE LAND 

1. Google searches

2. If a retail park, check on any signage which lists the on-site outlets

3. Ask retailers on the site if there is a managing agent

4. Ask retailers on the site to whom do they pay rent

5. Contact the local authority and ask who pays the non-domestic/business rate for the car park (some councils have a spreadsheet on their website)

6. Contact the local Valuation Office and ask if they know. They often have a website which might provide the information 

7. Contact The Land Registry and for around £3 they should be able to provide definitive detail

8. Give us the name of the car park, we may have seen other cases there. 

D_P_Dance

They have added an extra £60 which is almost certainly unlawful, read this and complain to your MP,

Excel v Wilkinson

At the Bradford County Court, District Judge Claire Jackson (now HHJ Jackson, a Specialist Civil Circuit Judge) decided to hear a 'test case' a few months ago, where £60 had been added to a parking charge despite Judges up and down the country repeatedly disallowing that sum and warning parking firms not to waste court time with such spurious claims.   That case was Excel v Wilkinson: G4QZ465V, heard in July 2020 and leave to appeal was refused and that route was not pursued.  The Judge concluded that such claims are proceedings with 'an improper collateral purpose'.   This Judge - and others who have since copied her words and struck dozens of cases out in late 2020 and into 2021 - went into significant detail and concluded that parking operators (such as this Claimant) are seeking to circumvent CPR 27.14 as well as breaching the Consumer Rights Act 2015.   DJ Hickinbottom has recently struck more cases out in that court area, stating: ''I find that striking out this claim is the only appropriate manner in which the disapproval of the court can be shown''.

Coupon-mad

Why no attempt mentioned by the OP, of complaining to the retail park, as anyone would?  Obviously VCS are their agent and can be slapped down.  Contacting the landowner was (and still is, never too late) the ONLY way to cancel this, it was pointless doing anything else.  DO THAT RIGHT NOW.

* If I decide not to pay whats the maximum this could cost after a court loss ?

£200, as we repeat ad infinitum, every day, to everyone else asking the exact same.  It's small claims, no costs to speak of.  Why do people think it costs fortune...  You risk NOTHING, not even a CCJ if you lose, by following our advice.

* What are my chances of winning a court case, 

Isn't the NEWBIES thread telling you 99% success rate clear enough?  This has been our win rate since 2016, reported by posters with no legal training.  Not sure why people worry so much.

dav3

Thank you all for the advice and reassurance, I have contacted the landowner, hopefully they will help.

I wasn't sure whether I should still ignore this most recent letter but now I'm much clearer on that.

Thanks

dav3

Hi All,
Since I last commented here I've contacted the landowner, there has been no response.
Also VCS have submitted the claim to the court and I have received the claim forms, I have 14 days to pay or submit my defence.
So I guess my next step is to write the defence and dispute the full amount. On this point I'm not totally clear what my best way forward is .... 
Just to clarify the amount submitted is - 

• Amount claimed - £160 (original 
• Court Fee - £25
• Legal Rep's cost - £50
• Total - £235

Should I : 

• Concentrate in the mitigating circumstances, explain my disappointment with the lack of empathy/humanity after requesting lenience? - from earlier comments I think the answer to this is no ?
• Mention the point around conflict of interests for the 'independent' appeals process ?
• Go the loss or earnings route , I think I've seen some info on some claims being successful by saying the fine amount does not accurately match any loss of income for the claimant ?
• Any other better ideas ? 

Thanks very much, I really appreciate your help!
D

D_P_Dance

Worth a read, see MC1

https://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/car_parks_and_parking/parking-regulations-enforcement/pcn-mitigating-circumstances.aspx

Redx

Post the issue date from the claim form below

Read the Defence template by coupon mad and adapt paragraphs 2 and 3 and post below for critique ( only your adapted paragraphs , not the whole defence )

This isn't your witness statement , so no mitigation

The no loss route is dead due to Beavis

So none of the above , just legal arguments plus setting the scene , concisely , no waffle , no jackanory stories

Read other recent VCS court claim threads to see what they wrote

Ps , the original PCN was no higher than £100 , so that £160 is false

dav3

Thank you for the speedy response!
The issue date is 27th April
The defence template you refer to , is this the 'Defence - redacted.pdf' one from here ? - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77614685/#Comment_77614685
Thank you !
D