Combi Boiler

kev2009

Hi all,

Sorry to raise a old thread but have another issue now and wanted to get peoples opinions on.  

At my property the power can go out from time to time for a few seconds.  In the past, the Ideal electronic 7 day timer housed in the Ideal combi logic 24 boiler has always kept the date/time etc.  Recently, it no longer keeps the date/time, every time the power goes out, it loses the date/time and it then appears it no longer takes my Nest-E thermostat temperature, it just runs at around 27 degrees constantly all day, the programmer keeps the schedule i set but it seems to not apply it, presumable until the date/time is set.

From what I can tell, it has no battery in it so would I be correct in assuming I simply need to buy a replacement ideal electronic 7 day programmer (same as one i have and replace it)?

I basically use this programmer to schedule the boiler coming on/off and i use the Nest-E to simply set the temp i want when the boiler comes on as if I leave the nest to schedule the times, it comes on in middle of the night etc which I don't want it to do, i want it to come on at the times I've set, not when it wants to.  Hence the current setup as worked fine but now seems to have a issue.

At present my Dad is unwell so I'm staying with my parents so I've had to leave the boiler off as I set the date/time and then it seemed ok but again later that night the power went off again and boiler went back to 27 degrees so I've turned it off to avoid unexpected bills, fortunately it isn't too cold atm so pipes wont freeze etc.

Thanks for any help.

I been looking and I think the programmer I need is the Ideal Logic Electronic Timer 7 Day Digital 204545, quiet expensive consider seems no battery in it.

Thanks

Kev

Bendy_House

I suspect, but don't know, that this timer does have a back- battery inside, tho' likely not considered user-replaceable. I'll try and check when I'm next properly on t'web.
Doesn't the Nest allow full programming of temps AND times? In which case the best solution would be to lose the Ideal Logic timer altogether? But I'd need to check how the Nest works. I take it there is a Nest receiver fitted near the boiler?

kev2009

Hi,
Yes, the Nest-E is the round unit you can set temp, not much else as it's not the nest learning one.  It has a heat link wired to boiler and the Nest-E talks to heat link which in turn talks to the boiler.

If i disconnect the ideal programmer, there would be a hole in boiler as no blank plate to fit in place.  Also, the Nest-E, wants to turn the boiler on at random times i.e. middle of the night if it drops temp etc which I don't want.  I realise it has a min temp that it would turn boiler on to prevent frozen pipes etc but the Nest-E seems to not just stick to my times, it wants to do what it wants almost.

I can tell from the history of Nest-E that sometimes it turns heating on at at 1am till 6am - but it doesn't as the programmer isn't set to those times so Nest *thinks* it turned it on but hasn't.  If i remove the programmer, then Nest would indeed turn the heating on at those times, which I don't want and I've not been able to stop it, regardless of what settings I change etc.

Plus on 1 occasion I've had the nest loose connection to nest-link which resulted in unable to set temp so I prefer a wired programmer with specific times to come on and off and then use Nest to literally adjust temp whilst it is on, its been working fine up till now.

Nest-E doesn't have as many options as Nest Learning.

Thanks

Kev

kev2009

It's possible it has  battery but didn't see it.  I've seen some replacements online but some say is in tatty box etc, although meant to be new, I'm dubious as to how long they been sitting around for as maybe they have the same issue, if non-replaceable battery is no good, I'd be in same position.

Kev

Bendy_House

Two options I can think of:
One is to replace the Logic battery. I'll check later, but this will almost certainly be a 'standard' like a CR2032 - a squid's worth.
The other is to examine the Nest's controls, because (afaik) it should do everything you want, and shouldn't be turning on the boiler at times you don't. Not often anyway.
I'm not at my pc at the mo' tho'...

kev2009

HI,

Thanks.  I've taken the programmer out and looked and couldn't see any CE2032 battery or similar on it so it could be non-replaceable if it is anywhere but didn't see anything.

I can set a schedule on Nest and it comes on/off at the times set but will also come on at other times when I don't want it to so seems to cost more when it keeps turning the boiler on at times I don't want i.e. middle of the night and sometimes it turns on a bit before the schedule time, even though I've turned the pre-heat option off set whereby it estimates if you want 20 at 10am and it thinks it will take 1 hour to heat your hoe to 20, it will turn on at 9am so its 20 by 10am, i turned that off as i want it to turn on at 10am not before but it still does... it got annoying so hence I've been using the programmer which turns on/off at required times and i use Nest-E purely to change the temp as and when required for instance it comes on at 3pm, if I'm out I leave it at say 15, then when I know I'm on my way home, I'll raise it to 20 so then when I'm home it is 20.

Thanks

Kev

Bendy_House

I have a Hive, and whilst most of it is very intuitive, I find some of it awkward to program.

However, I think I'd persevere if I were you - go on to a Nest support forum, and explain your issues.

The Ideal timer can be by-passed, but left in situ to fill that gap. Or, you can get faceplates for around £12.

If there is a battery inside, it'll require some dismantling - it'll likely be soldered/clipped to the PCB.

kev2009

I've tried with the nest for a few months, think Nest was put in around Sept/Oct last year but it still continues to come on outside of the times I set.  I presume to "bypass" you mean to set boiler to continuous or you mean to effectively unplug the 2 connectors and just leave it in to fill the gap?

It seems every time the power goes off, the programmer just flashes waiting for date/time and doesn't seem to accept the Nest temperatures, I can only presume this is due to it not know the date/time etc? Seems bit odd, thought it would of just been on at the temperature Nest was set to.  So concern is leaving it in and set to continuous, if power goes out, will it still use Nest-E and ignore the programmer if its connected? I suspect not as the programmer will cause a issue due to no date/time etc.

From what I can tell I've basically got 3 options as I can't think of anyway to prove its the programmer or something else.

1) Remove it & buy a blank plate for boiler and use Nest-E and live with it come on when it wants to as opposed to time set

2) Buy an identical replacement and fit it and hope that works and keeps date/time when power goes out.

3) Remove it, buy blanking plate & get a different smart thermostat, maybe Nest-Learning as it seems to have more options so maybe more controllable?

I thought of Hive initially as I liked the look of it but there was no mains powered version and I didn't like it using batteries, preferred it to be mains powered with a battery backup.

Boiler is just over 6 years old so if I get another programmer and it lasts 6 years, means boiler will be 12 years old by which time, it may well need replacing anyway and I can then review system and get new boiler & maybe a new/better smart thermostat all installed together.

Thanks

Kev

Bendy_House

Ok, I cannot find any reference to a battery for the Logic timer. In any case, I don't think this can be your issue.

ALL the Logic timer does it set 'times', when the CH can be on, and when it's off. This used to send that on/off instruction to the room thermostat which is what you then turned up and down to adjust the temp. That old room stat was replaced by the Nest's receiver, and this now gets its temp instructions from the NestE unit.

Ok, if the Logic timer went weird, it still couldn't - on its own - turn the CH on; it doesn't have any way of turning the CH on or off independently of the Nest. Ie, if the Nest said 'off', then it wouldn't matter what the Logic said, 'cos the CH would stay off.

So, I suspect your issue is elsewhere, and that means in your Nest. This could be the receiver, or the NestE stat.

Really, the Nest receiver should be left 'on' - powered - all of the time, and not be turned on and off by the Logic timer. But, I guess there's no real harm in doing this.

Your best setup would be to (a) 'by-pass' the Logic timer either by electrically unplugging it, and then adding a wee by-pass link in a socket behind it, and (b) getting to grips properly with the Nest, and working out why it's doing stuff you don't want. It just shouldn't be turning your CH on during the night like that!

It should be easily programmable to go to, say, 12oC overnight, and that would mean it would very rarely come on. On even 10oC. Or 5oC.

It shouldn't be telling you what you 'want'!

If your CH is coming on at 27oC all day, that ain't your Logic, it's your Nest, I'm pretty sure. Unless it's just the way the Nest receiver copes if the supply/timer doesn't work - it just defaults to a silly temp?

kev2009

The boiler I set to Run mode which uses the programmer to turn on the heating at the required times.  I've then set the times on Nest to what temps to be, effectively matching same times.  This way Nest cannot turn the boiler on/off (even when it says it turned it on at 1am, it hasn't), the boiler will only come on/off when the programmer turns it on/off.

Nest was originally set to ECO and it still was at 28C, I've turned nest off but it doesn't send to the boiler.  Once I set the date/time on the programmer, then the boiler stops and goes off and then waits correctly for next scheduled turn on but it seems with no date/time, the programmer has no idea what day it is so effectively ignores Nest completely.

The Nest-E is working as when I change it via my phone app, it reflects on Nest-E, when I press the button on the heat link once, it shows a green light which indicates its all connected and I can see it on my router as connected and can see both in Nest app/webpage so from what I can tell, Nest-E is working and accepting updates from app and it is connected to the heat link as no blue light flashing etc.  This is why I can only presume its the programmer as the boiler clearly works but just ignores the temps and the programmer has never needed the date/time set since it was initially setup when it was installed.

When I last reset the time on the programmer, the boiler stopped and temp started to drop slowly from 27 to 24, however that evening the power went out again and hence temp then went back up to 27 so it basically ignores its own programmed times until date/time is set as I guess it doesn't know what day to do?

The Nest-E communicates wireless to the heat link via threads I believe (no option to wire it to heat-link). It connects to a wall socket for mains power and sits on a stand.

The Heat-Link is hard wired and on the wall where original thermostat used to be (uses same cable that original thermostat used).

As said was working fine for few months.

Thanks

Kevin