Help! Evicting a nightmare lodger!

Ratkin007

In terms of HMO , if there are 5 people in the property a licence is required under mandatory licensing. If there are 4 people, it would be dependent on whether the Council has an additiional licensing scheme, which can be area specific. a check on the Council's website should confirm. It would specify the areas covered and is not dependent on whether there are other HMOs nearby. 

[Deleted User]

It does occur to me that as the new person has only been there for a few weeks, your relative should begin to stay 5 nights imo regularising the intended lodger arrangements possibly in the nick of time.

Type_45

elsien said:

Type_45 said:

Poster_586329 said:

The point about lodgers not being allowed locks on their doors is mentioned here:

https://landlordlawblog.co.uk/2018/03/01/resident-landlord-rights-lodger-tenant/

And

https://m.spareroom.co.uk/content/info-landlords/whats-the-difference-between-a-tenant-and-a-lodger/

Any government website that says otherwise must just have been poorly drafted!

I do think if this woman phones Shelter and describes her situation, they'll probably tell her that she has a tenancy. And that the resident landlord is actually to all intents and purposes living elsewhere.

However practically speaking (and especially if she has friends/connections in the area), you may hopefully find that, given reasonable time to find new accomodation, before long she'll accept it hasn't worked out and move somewhere else. 

Lodgers normally have a notice period of one rental period.  I think a month is fine, but if the cannabis smoking continues and disturbs others then might push for less.  

I'd really be very surprised if it ever made it to court / become a matter for lawyers.

Maybe a financial inducement will help?  For instance she might not have the funds to put down for another place.

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated. 👍

I would say, though, that neither of your linked articles really said that lodgers can't have locks on their doors (whereas tenants can)?

Perhaps someone else would like to comment on this?

To make sure that someone stays a lodger, rather than gaining additional rights, the landlord needs to ensure that they cannot be excluded from any space the lodger occupies. So if the lodger  has a lock on their door which can be used to lock the room while the lodger is not in there the landlord needs to ensure they also have a key and any agreement says they have the right to enter without permission. Otherwise they risk turning the lodger into a tenant. 

Your family member would appear to have effectively moved out. Calling in every day doesn’t equate to living there, to the impartial observer. Especially if that means behaviour had to be “confronted by text.” If you’re living in the same house as someone, it would be normal to have a direct conversation about any issues. 

Another link which has some dos and dont’s.
https://www.lodgerguide.co.uk/what-is-a-lodger/

If a lodger had lock on their door, does the Lodger Agreement have to explicitly say the landlord can, or cannot, enter?

If the agreement mentions neither, what is the default?

Type_45

Ratkin007 said:

In terms of HMO , if there are 5 people in the property a licence is required under mandatory licensing. If there are 4 people, it would be dependent on whether the Council has an additiional licensing scheme, which can be area specific. a check on the Council's website should confirm. It would specify the areas covered and is not dependent on whether there are other HMOs nearby. 

Yes indeed. When my family member originally checked if they need an HMO they rented 3 rooms.

They have since converted an office into a bedroom. They now have 4 lodgers.
They now need an HMO, unless they go back to 3 lodgers at time.

I have sent a text to inform them of this and they have said they will call the council tomorrow and seek advice.

Type_45

[Deleted User] said:

It does occur to me that as the new person has only been there for a few weeks, your relative should begin to stay 5 nights imo regularising the intended lodger arrangements possibly in the nick of time.

Good point!  

Although the relationship now is toxic...  Could a get-out be that the landlord is trying not to allow confrontation?

zagubov

Type_45 said:

[Deleted User] said:

It does occur to me that as the new person has only been there for a few weeks, your relative should begin to stay 5 nights imo regularising the intended lodger arrangements possibly in the nick of time.

Good point!  

Although the relationship now is toxic...  Could a get-out be that the landlord is trying not to allow confrontation?

Not sure there's such a get-out. The LLs return to a more continuous occupation may help move this person on.

Type_45

zagubov said:

Type_45 said:

[Deleted User] said:

It does occur to me that as the new person has only been there for a few weeks, your relative should begin to stay 5 nights imo regularising the intended lodger arrangements possibly in the nick of time.

Good point!  

Although the relationship now is toxic...  Could a get-out be that the landlord is trying not to allow confrontation?

Not sure there's such a get-out. The LLs return to a more continuous occupation may help move this person on.

Yes, I agree. 
There are other circumstances, but I can't go into that.

Type_45

Can I just say:

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. 👍

Amazing effort, and so many good points raised. 🙂

Keep the points coming if possible! 

[Deleted User]

Type_45 said:

[Deleted User] said:

It does occur to me that as the new person has only been there for a few weeks, your relative should begin to stay 5 nights imo regularising the intended lodger arrangements possibly in the nick of time.

Good point!  

Although the relationship now is toxic...  Could a get-out be that the landlord is trying not to allow confrontation?

I think what need to ask yourself is if you need to evict this person as a lodger or tenant what this will look like in each scenario. As a tenant it could be extremely problematic in comparison. 

macman

This is an interesting one, though I'm leaning towards the view that the LL is not in residence, and therefore a tenancy has been created, not a lodger arrangement. If so, the LL is doubtless in breach of numerous statutory requirements that are the responsibility of an LL, and specifically those of an LL running an HMO. Was a  GSC, EPC, prescribed info supplied etc? Deposit protected? I very much doubt it. If so the tenancy is not regularised
One thing is clear though: if it is a tenancy, it's not an AST, as the minimum term is specified as 3 months, not 6 months. And it's not an excluded tenancy. That means that no S21 or S8 is required to regain possession, and the tenant can be asked to leave at the end of the fixed period of 3 months.