Help! Evicting a nightmare lodger!

martindow

Type_45 said:Why would the landlord give the lodgers/tenants notice and sell the house? 

He doesn't seem to be cut out to be renting to lodgers or tenants.  As he has moved in with his partner, maybe selling the house might be a good way forward.

MaryNB

Type_45 said:

MaryNB said:

martindow said:

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

My local council is in the process of updating HMO requirements in the city for the second time in the last 2 years. In several areas only 3 unrelated tenants are needed to make a HMO. I'm sure there are others making similar changes. Definitely something that needs to be checked. 

Any idea what changes they are making?

The website in the LA of this particular landlord says that a HMO is "5 or more people in a 3 storey house".

So if the landlord only has 3 lodgers then it's not an HMO.

My local council has additional licensing requirements in central areas (3 unrelated people sharing a kitchen and/or bathroom regardless of number of storeys). Those changes will soon apply to other neighbourhoods (pending outcome of consultations) and there are also licensing requirements in some areas for rental properties that aren't even HMOs. 

The house is still a HMO if it's 3 more more unrelated people sharing, even if they are lodgers (see 2. Will taking in a lodger create an HMO?) . Under government regs it needs a licence if it is 5 or more people over 3 storeys.  If your local council says 5 or more he should be fine but something he should keep up to date with given councils have the authority to introduce further licensing requirements. However, (and apologies if you have already clarified this) it could affect his mortgage. My lender only allows up to 2 lodgers under a residential mortgage.

ETA: 3 storey requirement no longer applies in England. I believe it still applies in Wales.

Type_45

martindow said:

Type_45 said:Why would the landlord give the lodgers/tenants notice and sell the house? 

He doesn't seem to be cut out to be renting to lodgers or tenants.  As he has moved in with his partner, maybe selling the house might be a good way forward.

Possibly. He's got over £200k equity in the house which could be invested elsewhere. Worth considering.

theoretica

Type_45 said:

martindow said:

Type_45 said:Why would the landlord give the lodgers/tenants notice and sell the house? 

He doesn't seem to be cut out to be renting to lodgers or tenants.  As he has moved in with his partner, maybe selling the house might be a good way forward.

Possibly. He's got over £200k equity in the house which could be invested elsewhere. Worth considering.

I think definitely worth considering - as is coming out here there is so much that he has currently been running on 'I think' and 'what he'd heard' rather than keeping scrupulously on top of every change and detail.  And even neglecting his own vetting procedures out of greed.

Also consider the role you seem to have in this as his non-expert supporter - I sure as anything wouldn't want to put myself in the position of responsibility for advising someone who takes such a vague approach where so much could go wrong on the basis of internet advice. What would it do to your relationship when things do go wrong worse than they have already?  We can point out some of the pitfalls, but he needs to take responsibility and probably professional advice if he is going to run a lodging house business.

theoretica

Type_45 said:

MaryNB said:

martindow said:

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

My local council is in the process of updating HMO requirements in the city for the second time in the last 2 years. In several areas only 3 unrelated tenants are needed to make a HMO. I'm sure there are others making similar changes. Definitely something that needs to be checked. 

Any idea what changes they are making?

The website in the LA of this particular landlord says that a HMO is "5 or more people in a 3 storey house".

So if the landlord only has 3 lodgers then it's not an HMO.

Wales?  If England the website is out of date.  Also, that definition is for an HMO needing a licence - a Large HMO.  Three people in two or more families makes an HMO, but it may not need a licence.

https://www.gov.uk/private-renting/houses-in-multiple-occupation

Type_45

theoretica said:

Type_45 said:

martindow said:

Type_45 said:Why would the landlord give the lodgers/tenants notice and sell the house? 

He doesn't seem to be cut out to be renting to lodgers or tenants.  As he has moved in with his partner, maybe selling the house might be a good way forward.

Possibly. He's got over £200k equity in the house which could be invested elsewhere. Worth considering.

I think definitely worth considering - as is coming out here there is so much that he has currently been running on 'I think' and 'what he'd heard' rather than keeping scrupulously on top of every change and detail.  And even neglecting his own vetting procedures out of greed.

Also consider the role you seem to have in this as his non-expert supporter - I sure as anything wouldn't want to put myself in the position of responsibility for advising someone who takes such a vague approach where so much could go wrong on the basis of internet advice. What would it do to your relationship when things do go wrong worse than they have already?  We can point out some of the pitfalls, but he needs to take responsibility and probably professional advice if he is going to run a lodging house business.

I can't argue with any of that. On my advice he has contacted a solicitor he was already using and has given them his situation (as well as the Lodger Agreement he uses) and asked for their input.  That's probably the best advice I could have given him.

elsien

Completely irrelevant to the discussion but I’m baffled as to why, if he’s genuinely living there, why he wants to share his home with 3 strangers? 

One lodger, if he needs the money, maybe but I personally wouldn’t want to be sharing my kitchen with 3 other people trying to cook different meals at the same time, or share my sitting room/personal space. 

What are the agreements around that? 

That’s what makes it feel like he’s not living there. He seems to be more of a concierge/cleaner than a resident in his own home. Is that why he stays at his partner rather than the other way round? So he’s not having to live with 3 strangers? 

gettingtheresometime

Type_45 said:

***** UPDATE *****
The problem lodger was due to see her solicitor today. She was out of the house for a part of the day, so we assume that's what she did.  She has now said that she's moving out this week, and that she won't cause any problems and was back to being polite and contrite.
I am guessing the solicitor looked at the Lodger Agreement and decided that she was a lodger? Or maybe that it wasn't worth fighting about?
This is a huge relief for the landlord, and massive lessons learned.

why oh why can't I predict 6 numbers?

Type_45

elsien said:

Completely irrelevant to the discussion but I’m baffled as to why, if he’s genuinely living there, why he wants to share his home with 3 strangers? 

One lodger, if he needs the money, maybe but I personally wouldn’t want to be sharing my kitchen with 3 other people trying to cook different meals at the same time, or share my sitting room/personal space. 

What are the agreements around that? 

That’s what makes it feel like he’s not living there. He seems to be more of a concierge/cleaner than a resident in his own home. Is that why he stays at his partner rather than the other way round? So he’s not having to live with 3 strangers? 

Each to their own. He was lonely, and that's why he got lodgers originally. He did live with them and he was fine with it. Then he met his partner.

Type_45

theoretica said:

Type_45 said:

MaryNB said:

martindow said:

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

My local council is in the process of updating HMO requirements in the city for the second time in the last 2 years. In several areas only 3 unrelated tenants are needed to make a HMO. I'm sure there are others making similar changes. Definitely something that needs to be checked. 

Any idea what changes they are making?

The website in the LA of this particular landlord says that a HMO is "5 or more people in a 3 storey house".

So if the landlord only has 3 lodgers then it's not an HMO.

Wales?  If England the website is out of date.  Also, that definition is for an HMO needing a licence - a Large HMO.  Three people in two or more families makes an HMO, but it may not need a licence.

https://www.gov.uk/private-renting/houses-in-multiple-occupation

On the LA website where the landlord lives, it says it needs an HMO licence if there are 5. That won't be needed now, and it won't be an issue going forward as there will be a maximum of 4 of them (3 lodgers, plus the landlord). And often there's less than that, as lodgers come and go and rooms aren't always filled.

The two issues now are:

1) seeing where Planning Permission is needed and how serious it is that it's not been done already. (An email has been sent to the council already)

2) Three Lodgers still makes it an HMO, albeit one which doesn't need a licence. But what responsibilities/actions does he need to do to keep himself on the right side of regulations?