Help! Evicting a nightmare lodger!

[Deleted User]

Type_45 said:

theoretica said:

Type_45 said:

Someone asked this earlier, but I don't think anyone answered:

If a tenancy has been created by a landlord spending large amounts of time away from the property, can the tenancy be reversed back to a lodger situation if the landlord suddenly spends more time at the property?

Came up in another thread on here a while back and I believe the answer was no, it couldn't be reversed.  Think in that case the landlord had gone abroad for more than a holiday.

That's a bit different to the landlord in question on this thread, who is at the property everyday without fail to empty bins, sweep up, and generally manage the house, as well as sleep there 1 or 2 nights a week.

That he turned up at the property every day means nothing when it comes to determining where he lives.

After all, by the sounds of it he just goes there to manage the property. Not to kick back and relax.  I bet he doesn't have anything in the fridge! 

Perhaps a bad example these days, but people go to work every day but they don't live at work.

I'd actually take him needing to be there every day to reflect that it's an HMO that needs managing.

Here's a web page showing the duties of an HMO manager.  They have the right to visit at any time to carry out their duties:

https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/27144243/duties-of-a-hmo-manager.pdf

wannabe_a_saver

Type_45 said:

theoretica said:

Type_45 said:

Someone asked this earlier, but I don't think anyone answered:

If a tenancy has been created by a landlord spending large amounts of time away from the property, can the tenancy be reversed back to a lodger situation if the landlord suddenly spends more time at the property?

Came up in another thread on here a while back and I believe the answer was no, it couldn't be reversed.  Think in that case the landlord had gone abroad for more than a holiday.

That's a bit different to the landlord in question on this thread, who is at the property everyday without fail to empty bins, sweep up, and generally manage the house, as well as sleep there 1 or 2 nights a week.

Its still a no. 
Think about it, if you could convert a tenancy to a mere lodger agreement just by moving into the house, how many dodgy landlords would be doing it?

Type_45

deannagone said:

I strongly feel that in dealing with the tenant, don't make the situation worse than it is.  She is co-operating right now, and obviously is vulnerable even if behaviour can be difficult to manage at times.  Rather than treating her as some sort of 'horror tenant' just operate in the view that this arrangement wasn't a good fit for either the LL nor the tenant.   As I am sure is realised, there were things on both sides that led to this.

Absolutely. It's the landlord's fault for not vetting the tenant. He made a mistake. He was too eager to fill the room and get rent money. He is normally very careful and has had fantastic lodgers. This was his error. Lesson learned.

Type_45

Poster_586329 said:

Type_45 said:

theoretica said:

Type_45 said:

Someone asked this earlier, but I don't think anyone answered:

If a tenancy has been created by a landlord spending large amounts of time away from the property, can the tenancy be reversed back to a lodger situation if the landlord suddenly spends more time at the property?

Came up in another thread on here a while back and I believe the answer was no, it couldn't be reversed.  Think in that case the landlord had gone abroad for more than a holiday.

That's a bit different to the landlord in question on this thread, who is at the property everyday without fail to empty bins, sweep up, and generally manage the house, as well as sleep there 1 or 2 nights a week.

That he turned up at the property every day means nothing when it comes to determining where he lives.

After all, by the sounds of it he just goes there to manage the property. Not to kick back and relax.  I bet he doesn't have anything in the fridge! 

Perhaps a bad example these days, but people go to work every day but they don't live at work.

I'd actually take him needing to be there every day to reflect that it's an HMO that needs managing.

Here's a web page showing the duties of an HMO manager.  They have the right to visit at any time to carry out their duties:

https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/27144243/duties-of-a-hmo-manager.pdf

The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

macman

Type_45 said:

deannagone said:

I strongly feel that in dealing with the tenant, don't make the situation worse than it is.  She is co-operating right now, and obviously is vulnerable even if behaviour can be difficult to manage at times.  Rather than treating her as some sort of 'horror tenant' just operate in the view that this arrangement wasn't a good fit for either the LL nor the tenant.   As I am sure is realised, there were things on both sides that led to this.

Absolutely. It's the landlord's fault for not vetting the tenant. He made a mistake. He was too eager to fill the room and get rent money. He is normally very careful and has had fantastic lodgers. This was his error. Lesson learned.

I'm struggling to equate 'very careful' with someone who issues his vague lodger/tenancy agreements by text message? It's hardly a professional way to manage a property.

martindow

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

Type_45

martindow said:

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

Why would the landlord give the lodgers/tenants notice and sell the house? 

Type_45

macman said:

Type_45 said:

deannagone said:

I strongly feel that in dealing with the tenant, don't make the situation worse than it is.  She is co-operating right now, and obviously is vulnerable even if behaviour can be difficult to manage at times.  Rather than treating her as some sort of 'horror tenant' just operate in the view that this arrangement wasn't a good fit for either the LL nor the tenant.   As I am sure is realised, there were things on both sides that led to this.

Absolutely. It's the landlord's fault for not vetting the tenant. He made a mistake. He was too eager to fill the room and get rent money. He is normally very careful and has had fantastic lodgers. This was his error. Lesson learned.

I'm struggling to equate 'very careful' with someone who issues his vague lodger/tenancy agreements by text message? It's hardly a professional way to manage a property.

I agree. The landlord thought text was just as good as a signed agreement as that's what he had heard. He's since spoken to a solicitor who says that a signature is required. The landlord does have a written lodger agreement, and the solicitor is also going to look at it. 

MaryNB

martindow said:

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

My local council is in the process of updating HMO requirements in the city for the second time in the last 2 years. In several areas only 3 unrelated tenants are needed to make a HMO. I'm sure there are others making similar changes. Definitely something that needs to be checked. 

Type_45

MaryNB said:

martindow said:

Type_45 said:The landlord is thinking of getting an HMO licence after this. But I am thinking that's its way too much hassle and would visibly alter the house with all the signage etc?

Best to do what he's always done before now and stick to 3 lodgers. 


Another thing that has come up is the possible need for Planning Permission. This costs about £250/£300, apparently. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? How serious is it that this hasn't been done? Anyone know the process? Does it attract a fine/other issues?

But they are not lodgers if he continues living elsewere.  Have you looked up the requirements in the local authority for HMOs?  You appear to be relying on phone calls made some years ago.  The LA web site should have everything spelled out.

Do you think it might be better to give all of the tenants notice and sell the house?

My local council is in the process of updating HMO requirements in the city for the second time in the last 2 years. In several areas only 3 unrelated tenants are needed to make a HMO. I'm sure there are others making similar changes. Definitely something that needs to be checked. 

Any idea what changes they are making?

The website in the LA of this particular landlord says that a HMO is "5 or more people in a 3 storey house".

So if the landlord only has 3 lodgers then it's not an HMO.