NTK from Private Road unloading - POPLA decisions now in.

ParkerstNick

Here's one which is a bit different from the shopping/hospitals/stations scenarios.

A couple of weeks ago we completed on the purchase of a ground floor flat in a new-build block. There is no parking provision with the flat.

The block is on a main road, but pedestrian and vehicle access to the block is down a cul-de-sac side road. I assumed this side road was a public road. Have since checked with Council who say it is private and unadopted. There are double yellow lines on the flats' side of the road and opposite is a small estate of light industrial units, each with a narrow frontage with BPA no parking notices on the buildings. There are no road markings on the industrial estate side of the road.

So we arranged to pick up the keys at the flat on a Friday mid-afternoon and we had a newly-delivered heavy double mattress in the car so I stopped opposite the flat in front of one of the industrial units that looked empty, or at least closed during covid. One of the first things I asked during the handover from the developer's rep was about the parking in the road. She explained that the industrial units controlled the parking at all times (incl. evenings and weekends), that there was a camera up on a pole on the end of the units, which I hadn't spotted, but that they generally allowed about half an hour without ticketing. We were there for 30-40 minutes, and did not get a ticket.

We had further large items to deliver - double bed frame on car roof, chest of drawers. shelving units etc, so, attempting to be considerate, we waited until that evening when the units were closed and not using the road, and returned and stopped on the yellow lines directly outside the flat. ( I know the yellow lines don't mean much, but do they imply the signage on the other side of the road?) We unloaded, taking just 12 mins and then reparked the car out on the main road. Now we have a NTK for this after-hours stop.

So I have a few questions initially:

- Everyone who lives in these flats is going to have to ship some oversize items in at some point, if only when moving in. Am I being unreasonable in expecting to be able to do this without having to pay for the privilege? I appreciate it's partly the developer's fault for building a residential block with no public vehicular access but it's no good complaining to them as they have no influence over the PPC.

- Presumably there's no point in Plan A complaining to the landowner. The landowner is probably an unidentifiable industrial estate management company and the individual units have no incentive to placate us as they're not alienating potential customers.

- I assume unloading is not differentiated from parking?

So, having read through the Newbies info, I am concluding that the next course of action is to appeal online to PPC as keeper and dig deeper on technical grounds of signage, markings, display etc.

Thanks

Le_Kirk

Park on the main road, providing that it is only double yellow lines and no "kerb blips" meaning loading/unloading is permitted (for a limited time).

Fruitcake

What is the name of the PPC please?

Have a look at the (Laura) Jopson vs Homeguard (Securities ) judgment, where the judge said that loading/unloading is not parking. The relevant parts of the judgment are around paragraphs 19 and 20.
Note that this was an appeal court decision, so is persuasive on the lower courts.

Complain to the landowner no matter who they are. Get pics of the site and signage.

Yes, appeal to the PPC within the appeal deadline using the template in blue text you will find in the sticky thread for NEWBIES. Send it unaltered, from the keeper, but try for a landowner cancellation first. Do not miss the appeal deadline.

Umkomaas

Have a look at the (Laura) Jopson vs Homeguard (Securities ) judgment, where the judge said that loading/unloading is not parking. The relevant parts of the judgment are around paragraphs 19 and 20.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/f6d657adf7df70d27e1dd285688b5701?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

ParkerstNick

Le_Kirk said:

Park on the main road, providing that it is only double yellow lines and no "kerb blips" meaning loading/unloading is permitted (for a limited time).

The point is, it's much too far from the main road to hump things like a double bed frame and chest of drawers. Anybody moving house is always going to have to get closer, making them easy prey for the PPC.

KeithP

ParkerstNick said:

Le_Kirk said:

Park on the main road, providing that it is only double yellow lines and no "kerb blips" meaning loading/unloading is permitted (for a limited time).

The point is, it's much too far from the main road to hump things like a double bed frame and chest of drawers. Anybody moving house is always going to have to get closer, making them easy prey for the PPC.

Not if you make arrangements beforehand with one of the properties that has employed the PPC.

ParkerstNick

KeithP said:

ParkerstNick said:

Le_Kirk said:

Park on the main road, providing that it is only double yellow lines and no "kerb blips" meaning loading/unloading is permitted (for a limited time).

The point is, it's much too far from the main road to hump things like a double bed frame and chest of drawers. Anybody moving house is always going to have to get closer, making them easy prey for the PPC.

Not if you make arrangements beforehand with one of the properties that has employed the PPC.

Agreed, but easier said than done. The road is not identified as a private one, it has DYL so masquerades as a public road, and from the signage it is not clear that the PPC restrictions apply to that side of the road. There is no indication of any need to get prior permission until you get a NTK several days later.

nosferatu1001

If there is no signage stating it is private, and it uses standard carriageway markinghs, then you are entitled to treat them as if it is standard highway - which it is. Being publicly accessible means it is a highweay, the RTA applies etc
As such the standard meaning of DYL applies, and a dconsumer is entitled to rely on that
If they wanted it to be "no stopping"< thats what DRL are for

ParkerstNick

nosferatu1001 said:

If there is no signage stating it is private, and it uses standard carriageway markinghs, then you are entitled to treat them as if it is standard highway - which it is. Being publicly accessible means it is a highweay, the RTA applies etc
As such the standard meaning of DYL applies, and a dconsumer is entitled to rely on that
If they wanted it to be "no stopping"< thats what DRL are for

So, this is a privately maintained, unadopted highway (possibly - it is a cul-de-sac so is there actually a 'public right to pass and repass'?). Does the standard meaning of DYL apply here? I though DYL on private roads were just optimistic markings.

Fruitcake

If the scammers are BPA members, (and you still haven't told us who they are) then have a look at what the BPA CoP says about signage. I think there is something in there about conforming with standard traffic signs or yellow lines, and having to state on the signs if they mean something different.

ParkerstNick

Fruitcake said:

What is the name of the PPC please?

Have a look at the (Laura) Jopson vs Homeguard (Securities ) judgment, where the judge said that loading/unloading is not parking. The relevant parts of the judgment are around paragraphs 19 and 20.

PPC is Euro Car Parks.

Thanks for the link, seems pretty conclusive:

"I think in the end this was agreed. A milkman leaving his float to carry bottles to the flat would not be “parked”. Nor would a postman delivering letters, a wine merchant delivering a case of wine, and nor, I am satisfied, a retailer’s van, or indeed the appellant, unloading an awkward piece of furniture. Any other approach would leave life in the block of flats close to unworkable, a consideration which those instructing Miss Fenwick seemed reluctant to accept. I am quite satisfied, and I find as a fact, that while the appellant’s car had been stationary for more than a minute and without its driver for the same period (whatever precisely it was), while she carried in her desk, it was not “parked”"