NTK from Private Road unloading - POPLA decisions now in.

ParkerstNick

ParkerstNick said:

Thanks for the link, seems pretty conclusive:

So, the ECP signs on one side of the road are in terms of 'parking', which seems to specifically exclude loading/unloading by the above guidance. The Highway Code couches the DYL on the other side of the road in terms of 'waiting', and specifically excludes loading/unloading:

"Waiting restrictions indicated by yellow lines apply to the carriageway, pavement and verge. You may stop to load or unload (unless there are also loading restrictions as described below) or while passengers board or alight. Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions."

Fruitcake

The BPA CoP section on entrance signs says they should conform to DfT principles, so a motorist seeing DYL on a road would assume that they mean the same as those on a public road.

Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 says,

69 Contract terms that may have different meanings
(1) If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.

Coupon-mad

The managing agent that you pay Ground Rent to, will likely be the people who can get this cancelled and contracted with ECP.  Also, they would be the people to ask about how to exempt yourselves when moving large items in, or if you ever want a delivery, etc.

ParkerstNick

Coupon-mad said:

The managing agent that you pay Ground Rent to, will likely be the people who can get this cancelled and contracted with ECP.  Also, they would be the people to ask about how to exempt yourselves when moving large items in, or if you ever want a delivery, etc.

In case it's not clear from the first post, our managing agent is not the landowner in this case and did not contract with ECP. The landowner(s) of the private road are the industrial units on the neighbouring estate opposite. I've had a look at the title plan of one of those units and the ownership of each unit seems to extend across the width of the road immediateley outside their unit. Not sure if the ECP contract would be with them all individually, or whether they clubbed together under a management company.

nosferatu1001

I did not say they were real dyl. Just that without explicit large signs saying different and nothing that clues you into it being private, you would be entitled to RELY on the usual meaning. 

ParkerstNick

Can I ask about the tactics of the initial appeal against the PPC ticket.

The standard 'one-size-fits-all' template is a great help, but it is as described a one-size-fits-all and therefore necessarily rather coy about exact shortcomings in the particular PPC case.

Is this a deliberate tactic or is there any merit in going in guns blazing and adding a long list of areas where I am going to challenge them so that the PPC are put on notice that they are going to have a right fight on their hands and may therefore be more likely to drop it without getting embroiled further in a long fruitless paperchase? Or is there a good reason for keeping one's tinder dry at this stage?

I'm thinking of adding:

I will be challenging this weakest of cases on the following grounds, inter alia:
- inadequacy of and positioning of parking restriction signage
- road not identified as private
- misleading road markings
- failure to establish elements of contractual relationship
- failure to identify driver
- no evidence of actual parking event
- inadequacy of NTK details
- no evidence of actual location of vehicle
- charge is not a genuine estimate of loss incurred
- no planning permission for camera
etc,etc

In the event that you decide to take this lamentable claim further, I will be gleefully contending your case with POPLA and writing to complain to the local MP who happens to be PM Boris Johnson.

Umkomaas

PPCs don't read appeals, they just reject them. Save any gunpowder for a POPLA appeal - but a number in your list won't fly even with POPLA. 

fisherjim

Total waste of time worrying about the PPC stage as Umko says concentrate on getting a POPLA code and concentrate your efforts on that.

ParkerstNick

Sounds like good advice.

So is there even any need for that template. Doesn't it serve the same purpose just to put: 'I dispute your scammy parking charge and I'll see you at POPLA!"

nosferatu1001

There is a reason. It is a real enough appeal, so they cannot complain you did not appeal, and scammers recognise it and some just cancel on seeing it, as they know youre going to cost them £30 at POPLA