Euro Car Parks PCN notice after 10 minutes waiting in Wigan Wallgate carpark - advice please

ah1973

Hi all
I need some advice please, I realise there's a lot of advice already posted here and I've had a read through of some of the many threads but I need a clear, concise opinion on what best to do given my specific circumstances as I'm still a bit confused by it all.

On 5th March I entered the Wigan Wallgate ECP at 19:49:57 and left at 20:00:31 (according to the PCN), so just under 11 minutes later. I was waiting in that carpark for my wife's train to come and and I did not at anytime leave the car park on foot and therefore I was not parked in it, just waiting in it. 

I see now there are signs on the wall to indicate you must buy a ticket at all times, I can't post links apparently but if you google Streetview it you'll see the carpark next to Mr Joe's takeaway opposite the station.

But it's not possible to see those signs without first parking up anyway as to see the first sign would mean causing an obstruction at the entrance and to see the second sign showing the charges would mean driving in past the sole ANPR camera.

So even if you do drive in, see the signage, decide you disagree with the contract terms and leave you'll still get a PCN here because you had to pass the camera do it.
I've read there is supposed to be some kind of grace period? How long is that? Does nearly 11 minutes fall into that grace period then?

How can I get common sense applied here to cancel this charge, heck, if I was actually asked to pay the £0.50p required for the up to 30 mins parking I would do that but I've not even been given the chance to that.

How can any of this be considered fair in terms of contract law?

Should I be lodging an appeal on Euro Car Park's website as a first step and if so, what argument do i put forward (the above, or is it wiser not to admit that I just waited there 10 minutes for my wife etc?)?  If not via their site, where?

Help please, thanks!

blackdog2220

I've read there is supposed to be some kind of grace period? How long is that? Does nearly 11 minutes fall into that grace period then?

bpa (the trade body they use) latest code of practice states:

13 Consideration and Grace Periods 13.1 The driver must have the chance to consider the Terms and Conditions before entering into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, the driver decides not to park but chooses to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable consideration period to leave, before the driver can be bound by your parking contract. The amount of time in these instances will vary dependant on site size and type but it must be a minimum of 5 minutes. 13.2 The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place. 13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN. 13.4 Unauthorised motorists will not be entitled to the minimum time period of 5 minutes for a consideration period in spaces designated for specific users e.g Blue Badge holders, pick up/drop off or where parking is prohibited such as hatched areas in front of emergency exits, or on entry and exit ramps etc. 13.5 You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is. 13.6 Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of free parking and there is no requirement for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or grace period. 

Fruitcake

Whether the driver was in or out of the car, by your description, the car was parked.

As for fair, the parking industry is completely unregulated so that word doesn't come into it. Motorists not paying for parking when they are required to do so is oine of the reasons why these parking scammers exist.

It is not a good idea to reveal the driver's identity since the keeper has protections in law that the driver does not. Let's hope the scammers don't read your initial post where you have given enough information for them to identify the driver. Parking scammers do monitor this forum.
Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, although you haven't been on MSE long enough to use the edit function yet.

Anyway, please read the sticky thread for NEWBIES and then send the appeal template in blue text you will find there. Send it unaltered from The Keeper.
If/when it is rejected, continue to read the NEWBIES on what to do next.

Umkomaas

I was waiting in that carpark for my wife's train to come and and I did not at anytime leave the car park on foot and therefore I was not parked in it, just waiting in it. 

Urban myth. Never rely on that. 

How can any of this be considered fair in terms of contract law?

Where in terms of contract law do you consider it unfair?

Should I be lodging an appeal on Euro Car Park's website as a first step and if so, what argument do i put forward (the above, or is it wiser not to admit that I just waited there 10 minutes for my wife etc?)?  If not via their site, where?

Sounds like a plan - but you do it as per the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, first post - no edits, just as is in the blue text template. You submit it as per the instructions on the ECP NtK. 

ECP won't cancel, they never do - like all PPCs - so you'll need to try to get it cancelled at POPLA. Chances of POPLA success these days are little better than 50:50. 

Private car parks are now infested with PPCs and its vital that signage is sought out, read carefully and complied with. It has to become as much second nature as checking both ways before pulling out of a junction. 

D_P_Dance

Bear in mind that, if all tees have been crossed and Is dotted, you did breach a contract .  I would put your chances at PoPLA  less than umko's.  

KeithP

Here is the entrance sign from GSV...

I know it is on the opposite side of Wallgate to the station, but I wonder if this car park is actually on railway land?

fisherjim

If your wife's train was one hour late would you still expect an hours "waiting" was not parking, no it's not like that at all and it's down to the land owners rules, augmented by the PPC scammers that count.

PPC's are greedy money makers that don't play fair, and the only common sense they possess is when deciding how to bank their ill gotten, gains you will not get the chance to pay 50p.

The landowner gets the parking fees, the PPC skims the transgressors cash, they are pleased that you never paid believe me that's how it works.

You are now in the long haul unless you pay up which we don't advise, but the choice is yours; pay the ridiculous scam charge or fight it with the help on here.

ah1973

Thanks for the responses thus far, this almost feels like it's just easier to chalk this one up and pay the £60, but I know this is exactly what they expect. I am actually snowed under with work and I'm actually 50/50 on doing just that, but my sense of "this is letting crooks get away with it, don't let them" is pulling me in the other direction at the same time!

I had always thought that contract terms had to be reasonable in so far as how can it be reasonable to expect people to enter a car park, read the signage and then having done so decided that they do not want to enter into that contract and leave, as that is effectively what I did. So parking to them is literally entering the carpark and being there for any length of time regardless of whether the car was vacated or not or even the engine stopped? Just doesn't seem right to me, even if it's apparently totally legal?

ah1973

KeithP said:

Here is the entrance sign from GSV...

I know it is on the opposite side of Wallgate to the station, but I wonder if this car park is actually on railway land?

I'm wondering this as well, how can I find that out? I have to check with the land registry? Also, what difference does this make if it is?

D_P_Dance

If you do pay them be aware that there is a possibility that your money could be used to finance modern slavery, people smuggling, and the importation of illicit substances. 

ah1973

D_P_Dance said:

If you do pay them be aware that there is a possibility that your money could be used to finance modern slavery, people smuggling, and the importation of illicit substances. 

Where is the evidence for that claim please?