Electric heating

GPK1962

I'm new to this so hope im putting this in the correct place.  I am in the process of buying a 1200 Sq Ft apartment which has taken a year of searching to find and is perfect for my needs.  However, it currently has a 30 year old gas boiler which I was intending to replace.  I have discovered that due to H & S regulations regarding internal flues and with the inability to reposition the boiler, my only option is to go down the electric route.  I appreciate that the cost of electricity is higher than gas but im struggling to work out in a real life situation, approximately how much more it will cost me to keep this property to a comfortable temperature.  My options seem to be to go for an electric combi boiler to use with the existing radiators or to change to modern electric radiators, each with timers and thermostatic control along with an immersion heater for hot water.  I am about to retire and expect that in the depths of winter I may well want to heat the property which is not small, for up to 16 hours a day to somewhere in the region of 22-24 degrees as I feel the cold.  The marketing literature for these modern electric radiators suggest they are both efficient and economical to use but Im inclined not to believe everything I read. The fear of the unknown is making me consider pulling out of the purchase which is not really what I want to do but the prospect of electricity bills running into hundreds of pounds each month in the winter is not one I could afford.  Any useful comments would be appreciated.

Robin9

All the electric options will be very expensive.  As the boiler is 30+ the apartment is at least that and probably not very energy efficient.

But elsewhere - preferably  with gas heating

dogshome

30 year old gas boiler, if it has not been replaced, this suggests the the block was built in 1991 - This is way before the current building regulations on insulation, and any form of all electric heating will be a money pit,

You are right to be suspicious of the claims of Elec heater manufacturers, none of them can get more heat out of a Kwh than another,  buying elsewhere is the thing to do

matelodave

Electric heating with an electric flow boiler will cost you around 5 times as much as gas. Gas is around 3p/kwh and leccy is about 15p/kwh and you'll need the same amount of kwh from either gas or leccy to heat your place to the same temperature. Although electricity is 100% efficient and gas is only 90% the difference in efficiency is irrelevant when it come to the difference in running costs.

Electric heaters are marginally better insofar as you can heat one room at a time as required but the cost will still be 5 times a as much as gas. Storage heaters with an E7 tariff  are an option, especially if you are going to be home for a fairly high proportion of the time but even then the running cost on off peak rate will be 3-4 times that of gas but the cost of peak rate leccy is higher than normal which tends to negate some of the benefit.

Just look at some of the horror stories that have been emerging on this thread from people who have just gone through this winter with all electric heating and are now see astronomical leccy bills

I know it will be disappointing but TBH, unless you can get a solution to sorting out a gas boiler I'd be very inclined to look elsewhere

Grindrod0226

As far as I am aware the current Government view is to do away with gas boilers for 'green' reasons.

So with that at the back of your mind what are the alternatives?

Ignoring storage radiators as dogshome rightly says a kWh is only that much heat. I have them at home (also 30 years old) and to date have found them effective and clean with no add on costs of maintenance, boiler breakdowns or water leaks etc. and reasonable cost with the right Economy 7 tariff - although cheap tariffs are increasingly difficult to find. This is my current problem with the latest increases in the market. Current cost for 320 sq m is £150 per month but expected to go up to about £200 per month.

The only real alternative is an Air source heat pump which is more efficient than storage heaters and can use the current water based radiators. This is related to their inherent efficiency - more heat out than electricity in. But be aware they are also less efficient the lower the temperature outside. Not ideal in the UK in winter.

Good news is that there are incentives from the Government. There is a Government web page under 'Government grants' and there are other better pages by companies selling the product.
Be aware heat pumps can be noisy - like air conditioners - in an apartment block?

 

matelodave

Grindrod0226 said:

As far as I am aware the current Government view is to do away with gas boilers for 'green' reasons.

So with that at the back of your mind what are the alternatives?

Ignoring storage radiators as dogshome rightly says a kWh is only that much heat. I have them at home (also 30 years old) and to date have found them effective and clean with no add on costs of maintenance, boiler breakdowns or water leaks etc. and reasonable cost with the right Economy 7 tariff - although cheap tariffs are increasingly difficult to find. This is my current problem with the latest increases in the market. Current cost for 320 sq m is £150 per month but expected to go up to about £200 per month.

The only real alternative is an Air source heat pump which is more efficient than storage heaters and can use the current water based radiators. This is related to their inherent efficiency - more heat out than electricity in. But be aware they are also less efficient the lower the temperature outside. Not ideal in the UK in winter.

Good news is that there are incentives from the Government. There is a Government web page under 'Government grants' and there are other better pages by companies selling the product.
Be aware heat pumps can be noisy - like air conditioners - in an apartment block?

 

Air source heat pumps cannot use existing radiators, they need to be oversized (not neccessarily in dimensions but in heat output) as they run at far lower temperatures than those specified for gas heating - ideally by about 75%. They work satisfactorily in Scandinavian countries, so they should be OK in the UK if they are specified, installed, commission and operated correctly. I reckon mine is still cheaper to run than a storage heating solution and I've got the option of all the single rate tariffs available rather than being restricted to E7

They really aren't as noisy as some people seem to think although they may not be suitable for an apartment, depending where you can install the external unit in relation to you as plumbing and cabling has to be run between the external unit and the apartment.

Ideally they shouldn't be in a public space and I wouldn't suggest that they are located near a bedroom window as there is some noise from air blowing through the fan blades (I can hear the oil boiler from over the road when I stand right next to my twin fan ASHP - there is no mechanical noise at all). The other problem with an ASHP in an apartment block is acceptance of it by the owner of the building and neighbours (many of whom would just object because they can)

nottsphil

So why not just keep using the old gas boiler? It's still going to be more cost effective than any of the electric methods suggested. 

Mister_G

Indeed.  My gas boiler is now 38 years old and still going strong.  Yes, it may only be 65% efficient against the 90% of modern boilers, but it's very reliable.  The cost of changing it out would take a long time to payback, even with the increase in efficiency.

It will certainly be a lot cheaper than going to electricity.

Gerry1

Mister_G said:

Indeed.  My gas boiler is now 38 years old and still going strong.  Yes, it may only be 65% efficient against the 90% of modern boilers, but it's very reliable.  The cost of changing it out would take a long time to payback, even with the increase in efficiency.

It will certainly be a lot cheaper than going to electricity.

The OP's problem is that everything would be hanging by a thread: there would always be the worry that old boiler might fail at any moment and turn out to be unrepairable because critical parts were unobtainable.  If this happened during a cold Christmas / New Year period then significant disruption could result until some emergency heating could be implemented.  Worst of all, future running costs would be significantly more expensive.

However, if the same thing happens to you then presumably you can install a replacement boiler at the drop of a hat, celebrate the long service that the old one gave you and enjoy cheaper bills thereafter.

If it really is totally impossible to relocate the boiler or fit a flue that meets the regulations then the OP really should look elsewhere.  Even if the boiler soldiers on reliably, the OP could have problems if/when they want to sell because any new purchaser would be even more apprehensive about a boiler that will be even older by then.

nottsphil

Gerry1 said:

Mister_G said:

Indeed.  My gas boiler is now 38 years old and still going strong.  Yes, it may only be 65% efficient against the 90% of modern boilers, but it's very reliable.  The cost of changing it out would take a long time to payback, even with the increase in efficiency.

It will certainly be a lot cheaper than going to electricity.

However, if the same thing happens to you then presumably you can install a replacement boiler at the drop of a hat, celebrate the long service that the old one gave you and enjoy cheaper bills thereafter.

If it really is totally impossible to relocate the boiler or fit a flue that meets the regulations then the OP really should look elsewhere.  Even if the boiler soldiers on reliably, the OP could have problems if/when they want to sell because any new purchaser would be even more apprehensive about a boiler that will be even older by then.

I'm guessing you didn't intend the bit I enbolded to sound sarcastic

I'm sure the OP would ensure he has several electric heaters on standby  (as I do for my 30+ -y-o system). If it did indeed become irreparable, than he would be in no worse a position than he is at the moment. In fact he might be in a much better position, because by that time  the government of the day might have introduced the necessary incentives to persuade people to switch to electric home heating.
As for the resale value of the property, spending thousands on a new boiler could easily price out many prospective purchasers who could otherwise have delayed the upgrade until they could afford it.
As one of a number of repliers suggesting
he looks elsewhere, I think we should appreciate that he is already in the process of buying a property that has taken a year of searching to find and is otherwise perfect for his needs.  

Gerry1

nottsphil said:

Gerry1 said:

Mister_G said:

Indeed.  My gas boiler is now 38 years old and still going strong.  Yes, it may only be 65% efficient against the 90% of modern boilers, but it's very reliable.  The cost of changing it out would take a long time to payback, even with the increase in efficiency.

It will certainly be a lot cheaper than going to electricity.

However, if the same thing happens to you then presumably you can install a replacement boiler at the drop of a hat, celebrate the long service that the old one gave you and enjoy cheaper bills thereafter.

If it really is totally impossible to relocate the boiler or fit a flue that meets the regulations then the OP really should look elsewhere.  Even if the boiler soldiers on reliably, the OP could have problems if/when they want to sell because any new purchaser would be even more apprehensive about a boiler that will be even older by then.

I'm guessing you didn't intend the bit I enbolded to sound sarcastic
I'm sure the OP would ensure he has several electric heaters on standby  (as I do for my 30+ -y-o system). If it did indeed become irreparable than he would be in no worse a position than he is at the moment. 
As for the resale value of the property, spending thousands on a new boiler could easily price out many prospective purchasers who could otherwise have delayed the upgrade until they could afford it.

You've lost me !

Wasn't being sarcastic, just trying to point out that it may well make sense for @Mister_G to keep his old boiler until it fails, whereupon it should be possible to replace it (relatively) easily on a like for like basis and without too much inconvenience.

However, this strategy might not give the OP such an easy ride: what makes good financial sense for Mister_G might become highly problematic for the OP because it's such a hostage to fortune, hence the recommendation to purchase a different property.