Money Claim - Going Court for Private Parking PCN

bergkamp10

Hi, I have read the forum, FAQs and the sticky threads on here to improve my understanding. Thank you for all the information.

To start with, a friend has received a Money Claim letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd.

On Jan 29, 2021 he received a Money Claim letter. On February 1, we sent an SAR to CEL to which they have not yet responded. On February 16 he responded on the Money Claim website and acknowledged service and the intent to defend the claim. On February 17 he sent a a CPR request asking for all the particulars statement info to be sent but they have still not responded as of today. I believe he has until 2nd or 3rd March to put in a defence so helping him draft something to prepare him for the court.

Basically he said he was there and paid for parking however received a ticket some time later. The car was a rented car and apparently he was sent this after the rental company transferred liability. He had responded to the letter by appealing on their website saying he'd paid twice on that day as he was in class and after the first payment he came back to the car 10 minutes before it expired and put in more money and put up a second ticket on his windscreen. He says he is 100% certain as it is the only time he has ever parked there. He explained that as he paid that they should not have charged him. They did not respond however months later a letter from QDR solicitors who were instructed by ZZPS on behalf of Civil Enfocement Ltd that he needs to pay £182 or be taken to court. This was sent 3rd August 2020.

I started this thread for him but the issue I am facing with this is he says he paid for the ticket with cash but does not have the ticket as the PCN was sent to him much later.  He only found out about the PCN and made the appeal months later. Also he seems to have misplaced the original letter he received from them somewhere in his house so all I have to go on are the two letters he received from QDR solicitors. I have not seen the original PCN nor the NTK.

I had originally posted this information on his behalf on pepipoo forums as I do so for myself whenever I receive any council PCN but it seems that the Private Parking section doesn’t get as much traffic as the Council Section so I thought it might be worth a try on here as it seems quite busy.

Another thing to note, with regards to the CPR, when tracking the delivery, we noticed that although it was sent on Feb 17th, it was only delivered on Feb 22nd as they had decided to reroute all their letters from LIverpool (where it was sent to) back to a secondary address London.

Oh, and there was never any Letter before Claim sent. The letters from the solicitors were just chasing payment and mentioned that they may "recommend" that their clients pursue a CCJ, or that they may "look to obtain a CCJ". Nothing like a clear document stating

I will help him fill in the defence using the template here however, as there is no PCN there is no clarity of they are saying he overstayed or he just never paid. There is also the question of whether he should admit to being the driver or not. He says he did appeal on their website but I can find any evidence for it in any of his emails. Not sure if they know who was the driver however, and we would have known if they’d responded to the SAR that requested all info and correspondence they had on my friend and the vehicle he was renting. In this case I am not sure whether he should defend as just the person who hired the vehicle or as the driver.

Without all this information in the SAR or CPR requests, would the defence still need to be made on the 2nd/3rd March or would there be an extension because of this delay.

Redx

Get said friend to login to MCOL and check the claim history and post it below , especially the issue date of the claim form plus the date the AOS was logged

We cannot answer questions without the correct data , nobody can

The defence is not dependent on the SAR reply , CEL have 30 days to reply to the SAR !!

A defence can be written even if no paperwork is on hand !!

Post the proposed draft of paragraphs 2 and 3 below asap

If he was the hirer , he defends as hirer , because CEL and all the other PPC s always fail POFA , POFA does not protect drivers , it never has , this thread explains why

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6246439/horizon-parking-gladstones-claim-help-with-witness-statement/p1

An admitted driver defends as a driver , no question about it !!

Ps , judges do not seem at all interested in LBC or pre court shenanigans

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6171887/help-advice-needed-regarding-pcn/p15

Umkomaas

We need to see exactly what your friend has put in writing to CEL. It seems from your account of your friend's actions, the identity of the driver has already been exposed. This is just hopeless trying to read between the lines of Chinese whispers.  Get him/her on the forum dealing with this directly. 

KeithP

bergkamp10 said:

To start with, a friend has received a Money Claim letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd.

On Jan 29, 2021 he received a Money Claim letter.

On February 16 he responded on the Money Claim website and acknowledged service and the intent to defend the claim.

Firstly, are we to assume that 'a Money Claim letter' is actually a County Court Claim?

You say it was received on 29th January, but what is the Issue Date on that Claim Form? 

bergkamp10 said:

On February 17 he sent a a CPR request asking for all the particulars statement info to be sent but they have still not responded as of today.

Which 'CPR Request' are you talking about?
Is it applicable to the Small Claims Track?

bergkamp10 said:

Another thing to note, with regards to the CPR, when tracking the delivery...

Never ever send anything to a parking company or their solicitors using any service that requires a signature.
All that does is give the intended recipient the opportunity to not sign and hence refuse delivery.

All you have then is proof of non-delivery. Not quite what you want.

If you want to use Royal Mail, then send it by standard first class post obtaining a free Certificate of Posting from the Post Office counter. The item is deemed delivered two working days later.

Keep that Certificate of Posting as proof.

bergkamp10

Here is the information on the MCOL history.
A claim was issued against you on 29/01/2021
Your acknowledgment of service was submitted on 16/02/2021 at 12:00:10
Your acknowledgment of service was received on 16/02/2021 at 14:05:18

He's also just informed me that they have responded to his SAR through email. They shared a copy of the PCN (which claimed the "contravention" was on Feb 12, 2020 and the Notice to Driver/Hirer was sent on March 9, 2020) however it looks very shoddy, as if it was a photoshop job using windows paint. The PCN states the "contravention was for "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

They also included the appeal made by my friend stating that he paid and that there must have been something wrong with their system as his ticket was clearly displayed at the time. They responded as following:

"RESPONSE FROM REPRESENTATIONS TEAM
We refer to your recent correspondence.
This ticket was issued for exceeding the parking time paid for.
The above PCN is outstanding at the amount of £140.
Payment can be made online on www.ce-service.co.uk, by calling 0115 822 50 20 or forwarding a cheque or Postal Order payable to Civil Enforcement Ltd to Horton House, Exchange Flags, Liverpool, L2 3PF within 14 days from the date printed on this letter"

They have also sent copies of a number of follow up letters that were apparently never received from ZZPS and a LBC from CEL. The only letters he had received however were letters from QDR on behalf of ZZPS despite the address being the same.
They conveniently left out the request for the machine log for that day which could have proved that a second ticket was issued the vehicle on that day as my friend said he did.

They also did not explain what the charges are for other than the Money Claim form which said £182 for "debt + damages", £13.96 for interest. This is their claim amount aside from the court fees and legal rep fees. The letters in the email show that the price was £100 reduced to £60 in 14 days. Then it increased to £140 then it increased to £170, then £180 then in the money claim they added interest which made it £195 plus another £50 + £25 for solicitor (their own head of legal) and court fees.

Here are the paras 2 and 3 I have just drafted with my friend just now.

"

2.      It is admitted that the Defendant was the driver of the hire vehicle in question but liability is denied. It is admitted the defendant was the driver.

3.      On the date in question the Defendant admits to being the driver and having parked on the premises. The area was not familiar to the Defendant and but remembers clearly the events of the date as it was the one and only time he had ever visited the area. As he was in a class he parked and paid for a ticket to park his vehicle whilst he was in class. The defendant also clearly remembers going back to the vehicle shortly before the expiry of the original ticket to purchase a second ticket to extend the time allowed for his vehicle to be parked. The tickets were both displayed at the time on the dashboard of the vehicle. This information should be available to the Claimant in their machine logs of VRMs on the date in question. The Defendant explained to the Claimant that he had paid for parking on the date in question however the Claimant claims that the Defendant overstayed. If the Claimant is claiming that the Defendent overstayed and did not buy a second ticket then there was an error on the machine which prevented the VRM of the Defendant being logged correctly. In this case the Claimant should have properly considered the Defendant’s appeal by investigating all of the tickets purchased around the time to ensure there were no instances of (fluttering ticket situations) or of the machine registering keystrokes of VRMs wrongly.

bergkamp10

It seems I can not edit the post for some reason. I just forgot to say thank you for the response.

bergkamp10

Redx said:

Get said friend to login to MCOL and check the claim history and post it below , especially the issue date of the claim form plus the date the AOS was logged

We cannot answer questions without the correct data , nobody can

The defence is not dependent on the SAR reply , CEL have 30 days to reply to the SAR !!

A defence can be written even if no paperwork is on hand !!

Post the proposed draft of paragraphs 2 and 3 below asap

If he was the hirer , he defends as hirer , because CEL and all the other PPC s always fail POFA , POFA does not protect drivers , it never has , this thread explains why

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6246439/horizon-parking-gladstones-claim-help-with-witness-statement/p1

An admitted driver defends as a driver , no question about it !!

Ps , judges do not seem at all interested in LBC or pre court shenanigans

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6171887/help-advice-needed-regarding-pcn/p15

Thank you. Yes, my latest post included their SAR response which showed that he had admitted to being the driver in his appeal so he was the hirer and the driver.

Umkomaas said:

We need to see exactly what your friend has put in writing to CEL. It seems from your account of your friend's actions, the identity of the driver has already been exposed. This is just hopeless trying to read between the lines of Chinese whispers.  Get him/her on the forum dealing with this directly. 

Hi Umkomaas. Thanks for the response. I'll ask him. I just took over because I realised he was not taking the whole process seriously earlier on as he'd read that private parking PCN's could be ignored. I had asked him to send an SAR back in August/September when he received a letter from QDR but that was only done on Feb 1st when I took over as I had worried for him once he'd informed me he was being taken to court. So since then I have been the one kind of acting as his "legal" representative getting info for him from pepipoo and now here to try help him get out of it as I know he's struggling financially at the moment. I worry if I just leave it in his hands he may miss deadlines and screw everything up.

KeithP said:

bergkamp10 said:

To start with, a friend has received a Money Claim letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd.

On Jan 29, 2021 he received a Money Claim letter.

On February 16 he responded on the Money Claim website and acknowledged service and the intent to defend the claim.

Firstly, are we to assume that 'a Money Claim letter' is actually a County Court Claim?

You say it was received on 29th January, but what is the Issue Date on that Claim Form? 

bergkamp10 said:

On February 17 he sent a a CPR request asking for all the particulars statement info to be sent but they have still not responded as of today.

Which 'CPR Request' are you talking about?
Is it applicable to the Small Claims Track?

bergkamp10 said:

Another thing to note, with regards to the CPR, when tracking the delivery...

Never ever send anything to a parking company or their solicitors using any service that requires a signature.
All that does is give the intended recipient the opportunity to not sign and hence refuse delivery.

All you have then is proof of non-delivery. Not quite what you want.

If you want to use Royal Mail, then send it by standard first class post obtaining a free Certificate of Posting from the Post Office counter. The item is deemed delivered two working days later.

Keep that Certificate of Posting as proof.

My apologies, I mistyped. I meant the ticket was issued on Jan 29th, he responded on Feb 16th.

We didn't realise at the time regarding the post. We do have tracking of Special Delivery that was sent on Feb 17th due for delivery on Feb 18th. They then rerouted it back to another address in London and then requested Royal Mail to hold the item on the 20th and 21st Feb until someone was in the office on the 22nd to sign for the CPR.

With regards the CPR, I was advised on the pepipoo forums to send a CPR 31.14 Request to the "address for sending documents" on the Claim Form.

This is what my friend sent at the time with regards to the CPR:

"Dear Sir or Madam,

Claim Number: XXXXXXXXXX
Request for documents mentioned in a statement of case under CPR 31.14
On 06/02/2021 I received a County Court claim from yourselves of which I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on 21/02/2021. These include:

1. The Parking Charge Notice and the Notice to Keeper,
2. The Terms and Conditions for the site where the alleged contravention occurred,
3. Copies of the signs that created the alleged contract,
4. A printout of vehicle registrations made through the ticket machine on the date of alleged contravention, and
4. The reasons for the additional costs above the charge of £100.

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

You should note that this claim has not yet been allocated to a specific track and the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect. Had your claim not been issued through CCBC the Claimant would have been obliged to attach copies of the documentation upon which it relies to the Particulars of Claim.

I, as Defendant, am entitled to see the documents on which the Claimant relies and which you must produce at trial. Disclosure at this stage will enable me to fully plead my case and further the Overriding Objective.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing and confirm your agreement to an extension of the time allowed for me to file my defence as allowed under CPR 15.5 so I may notify the court.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely
Xxxxxx Xxxxxx"

He has not had any response as of yet however.

Redx

You do realise that it will be months before any court hearing , so the current financial state is of no relevance ?

Coupon-mad

Just use the template defence - he can add facts as he knows them to point #3 and be emailing it tonight.  Not a difficult stage but an urgent one.

bergkamp10

Redx said:

You do realise that it will be months before any court hearing , so the current financial state is of no relevance ?

I may have mis-emphasised. I worry that if I do not intervene and help him out he may miss key dates that result in a CCJ being made against him. That's why I decided to help him at first when I posted on pepipoo on his behalf when I realised that he had received letters from a QDR solicitors. Once I realised he did not send the SAR as originally requested, and that he was now being taken to court I informed him that I would be willing to take more of a hands on role if he was wanted me to do so.

Coupon-mad said:

Just use the template defence - he can add facts as he knowns them to point #3 and be emailing it tonight.  Not a difficult stage but an urgent one.

Hi coupon mad. I posted above on what I had drafted with my friends for the template.

KeithP

bergkamp10 said:

KeithP said:

bergkamp10 said:

To start with, a friend has received a Money Claim letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd.

On Jan 29, 2021 he received a Money Claim letter.

On February 16 he responded on the Money Claim website and acknowledged service and the intent to defend the claim.

Firstly, are we to assume that 'a Money Claim letter' is actually a County Court Claim?

You say it was received on 29th January, but what is the Issue Date on that Claim Form? 

My apologies, I mistyped. I meant the ticket was issued on Jan 29th, he responded on Feb 16th.

Come on! Get a grip! A ticket was issued on 29th January?? No it wasn't.
It really is important to get these things right now that you are getting closer to the sharp end.

bergkamp10 said:

Here is the information on the MCOL history.
A claim was issued against you on 29/01/2021
Your acknowledgment of service was submitted on 16/02/2021 at 12:00:10
Your acknowledgment of service was received on 16/02/2021 at 14:05:18

With a Claim Issue Date of 29th January, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 3rd March 2021 to file your Defence.

Less than two days to go.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look at the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Don't miss the deadline for filing a Defence.