think husband spending on dodgy or illegal stuff, how to trace bank transfer

mrsdoubtful

Hello, I am new, joined this forum for advice, sorry if not in the right section. Also sorry it's long!

(this post might look familiar, I’m posting in a few forums around the internet to try and get advice).

I’ve discovered by chance husband has re-activated old abandoned bank account.

(we switched to an offset mortgage account about 20 years ago because of his overspending on general stuff like clothes etc. for himself, we never bothered to close the old account). It is a joint account in both our names, but he obviously assumes I won’t look at it these days.

He definitely has a Revolut account. Told me this voluntarily a couple of years ago, and said it was because you can use it on holidays abroad without bothering about exchange rate etc. That in itself is fine, I thought nothing of it at first.

There are regular cash (transfer) payments to Revolut from our main joint bank account: I have asked about this and he has said it’s for work accommodation/food.(he gets an allowance in his wages for this) The payments are regularly c£200 during working weeks, but many of these have been during furlough.

He then moves that money from Revolut into the previously abandoned bank account.

He then makes payments from this old bank account to an unknown account as a bank transfer: This is the thing I need help with, I need to find out where it is going/who’s account it is? Sometimes he has paid into the old bank account from Revolut, sometimes cash. (Seems to be in a rush/panic because sometimes has taken money out before deposit cleared) the amounts vary, they’ve been, for example, 10 p (which I guess is a tester amount to make sure it worked?) then things like £5, £105, £300, £200, £120, £50, £20 – it varies like that. All these were during furlough so definitely nothing to do with work expenses.  Also, it is definitely him doing this rather than an online fraudster because some of the amounts have been paid into a branch counter in person. Also because he has deliberately ordered a new card etc which has come to our home.

I’ve googled the transfer number and got nowhere: however, I think the first 6 numbers are a sort code and the number matches ‘Revolut England and Wales’. So he has funnelled money from our main account, to an old abandoned account, to his Revolut, to another Revolut? (unless he’s gone mad and is moving it around and back to himself again which would be pointless, but you never know!) I’ve discovered that with Revolut you can have one-off disposable ‘virtual’ cards on your account.

So, assuming from all this secret shuffling that it’s something he never wants me to find out (or he’d just use our normal account) : He has history of drugs (recreational, not recently, years ago before we were together as far as I know) and !!!!!! (ongoing): could he be paying someone for something like this? Surely you would just pay cash in person? unless online stuff like webcam etc., or even he could have graduated to paying for sex in person? I’d be really grateful for any tips or advice how to find out more about this: I’m pretty good at google, but I’ve run out of questions to ask it! (I’ve not mentioned gambling as a possibility because I’ve never known him show any interest in that, although at this point, it could be anything).

Also, ApplePay: looking through our joint credit card statements, I’ve also noticed many Apple Pay payments. How can I find out more about them?  If the ApplePay payments are also going to his Revolut account, then it takes the spending into a whole new realm: talking hundreds/thousands. How can I find out?

Also there are loads of payments to Etsy: I’ve never used Etsy and I am certain he hasn’t, he wouldn’t be buying homemade teacosy or whatever, does Etsy sell !!!!!! or drugs on the sly?

How can I trace the bank transfer from our old bank account to whoever it is? (I would be legally entitled as the old account is in both our names!) If I go into a branch will they tell me? As I’m joint account holder, even though it was him making these transactions?

If you’re thinking ‘just ask him’, that would be pointless: He has a long previous history of lying, emotional abuse, passive aggressive behaviour. Better that I try to find out as much as possible myself first. Can private detectives do stuff like this? Or forensic accountants?

Thanks in advance.

Emmia

Why don't you talk to him? tell him that your aware of the reactivation of the old account, and see where that goes - he may have a history of passive aggressive behaviour, and he won't like the fact you've been digging however it comes out... if you hire an investigator etc., what would you do with what they dig up?  

Have you checked your credit files for information on linked accounts - has there been any change in the contents of your file (has the offset mortgage balance increased?), as with a joint mortgage you'll be linked financially. 

Etsy will sell you everything from a handknitted tea cosy to bondage equipment...

sassyblue

Definitely try the bank first and glean as much info out of them as you can. 

AskAsk

as someone had said, you could just confront him.  at least then he knows that you aint stupid even if he tells you lies about what is going on.  he will at least know that you are aware of what is going on.

as a joint account holder, you would be able to get statements to the bank account i am guessing.  as to the exact details of the recipient, i am not sure if the bank would disclose more than what appears on the statements, or even if they have any more information than what appears on there.

i am guessing that you can see his revolut account?  otherwise why the convoluted movement into a joint account?  if it was me, i would just use the revolut and not let you see it.  it seems a bit odd that he would use a joint account for something that he doesn't want you to see.  sounds like a school boy error?

sassyblue

mrsdoubtful said:

If you’re thinking ‘just ask him’, that would be pointless: He has a long previous history of lying, emotional abuse, passive aggressive behaviour. Better that I try to find out as much as possible myself first. Can private detectives do stuff like this? Or forensic accountants?

Thanks in advance.

Did either of you read that paragraph?  Do you really think he’s going to confess everything truthfully?

Far better the OP finds out what she can herself in this instance, she can judge his responses when she confronts him from what she discovers. Only then will she know if she can trust him further.

Savvy_Sue

It sounded to me as if the OP knows about ONE Revolut account, but does not have access to it, and suspects that there is more than one such account. 

Can you get online access to this old joint account? That will certainly tell you a bit more than you know now, and if he lies about it you can at least show him the evidence you have already. 

BUT bottom line is, what are you going to do with the information? What are your longer term plans? doesn't sound like he's likely to stop overspending, deceiving you etc (because he hasn't done so up to now), so do you need to start protecting yourself? 

Do you have an account in your sole name? I'd definitely want one, and I'd definitely want to get some assets into it ... 

princeofpounds

A bank will not tell you who owns an account. Very rarely google will if it's listed in payment details online, but that's unusual as it's not great practice.

The account would presumably have to be set up as a payee to execute a transfer. That payee will have a name, defined by the person that set it up. If you have access to the account online you may be able to see that by starting a money transfer and seeing the options in the 'to' list. Or, a branch may tell you that information, given it was created by your own account. It may or may not be informative.

If it looks useful, you can potentially further verify the account name by going to an account where the payee is not set up, and trying to set up a transfer there. When you enter the name of the payee account the bank should perform a name check, that will tell you if the name you enter matches, or is close to, the name on the account. That's something that was introduced relatively recently if you're not familiar with it, but not all accounts are covered (it tells you if not).

The payments could be for anything. 'Services' in person seems a bit less likely given the amounts are so variable and some are relatively small, unless that is an elaborate cover. Gambling, camming etc possibly. Or even something far more innocent - not aware of anything too weird on etsy for example (well, weird taste knick knacks maybe!).

A private investigator should not be able to get more information that you, but it wouldn't surprise me if some had dodgy bank staff they can call and bung a few quid. Forensic accountants don't do this sort of thing.

To be honest, I would fall into the talk about it camp. If you can't get a calm, straight answer, then I'd question why persist in the marriage anyway. Communication and trust should be a basic foundation (recognising that no-one is perfect), so it almost doesn't matter what is being hidden.

Emmia

sassyblue said:

mrsdoubtful said:

If you’re thinking ‘just ask him’, that would be pointless: He has a long previous history of lying, emotional abuse, passive aggressive behaviour. Better that I try to find out as much as possible myself first. Can private detectives do stuff like this? Or forensic accountants?

Thanks in advance.

Did either of you read that paragraph?  Do you really think he’s going to confess everything truthfully?

Far better the OP finds out what she can herself in this instance, she can judge his responses when she confronts him from what she discovers. Only then will she know if she can trust him further.

If the OP doesn't trust her husband to the point she's considering private detectives etc. then it doesn't sound like much of a marriage. 

AskAsk

Emmia said:

sassyblue said:

mrsdoubtful said:

If you’re thinking ‘just ask him’, that would be pointless: He has a long previous history of lying, emotional abuse, passive aggressive behaviour. Better that I try to find out as much as possible myself first. Can private detectives do stuff like this? Or forensic accountants?

Thanks in advance.

Did either of you read that paragraph?  Do you really think he’s going to confess everything truthfully?

Far better the OP finds out what she can herself in this instance, she can judge his responses when she confronts him from what she discovers. Only then will she know if she can trust him further.

If the OP doesn't trust her husband to the point she's considering private detectives etc. then it doesn't sound like much of a marriage. 

which is why I think the OP needs to confront her husband and just have it out.  she can still find out what the transactions are, just having the whole thing brought out in the open does not stop her looking further into the transactions.

what is the point of sneaking around behind his back and trying to work out what he is up to without confronting him? it could be something innocent and he will be able to give evidence of what they are, but at least i think this needs to be out in the open.

Emmia

AskAsk said:

Emmia said:

sassyblue said:

mrsdoubtful said:

If you’re thinking ‘just ask him’, that would be pointless: He has a long previous history of lying, emotional abuse, passive aggressive behaviour. Better that I try to find out as much as possible myself first. Can private detectives do stuff like this? Or forensic accountants?

Thanks in advance.

Did either of you read that paragraph?  Do you really think he’s going to confess everything truthfully?

Far better the OP finds out what she can herself in this instance, she can judge his responses when she confronts him from what she discovers. Only then will she know if she can trust him further.

If the OP doesn't trust her husband to the point she's considering private detectives etc. then it doesn't sound like much of a marriage. 

which is why I think the OP needs to confront her husband and just have it out.  she can still find out what the transactions are, just having the whole thing brought out in the open does not stop her looking further into the transactions.

what is the point of sneaking around behind his back and trying to work out what he is up to without confronting him? it could be something innocent and he will be able to give evidence of what they are, but at least i think this needs to be out in the open.

I completely agree - that's why I suggested talking to him in my first post.

sheramber

On my bank account ifI click on 'make a payment' it brings up a list of all the payees I have set up ( unless I have deleted it after making the payment ) including the name on each account.