Dispute with wedding photographers - Covid related!

Sandtree

CrippsCorner said:

Sandtree said:

There are no official ombudsman covering photography, the official ones typically cover regulated industries or the public sector. There are a few self styled ombudsman but they really are an alternative dispute resolution service that have stuck the word ombudsman in their title and normally dont have any legal powers to enforce judgements etc.

Professional bodies can be the other option to look at but the main one for photographers is the BIPP and they only deal with matters of the quality of images (plus have a fee for asking them to look at the complaint).

So the only route is to go to court in which case its a letter before action and then issue proceedings via the Money Claim Online. Even with the free initial advice from the person that works at a solicitors (therefore could be a solicitor, paralegal or trainee) there is always an element of court being a roll of the dice however as the case will be allocated to the Small Track the financial risk is very limited.

I'm not really looking for a photographer specialist to discuss with, more of a consumer rights ombudsmen. I guess what I want doesn't really exist?

Thanks for the Money Claim Online recommendation. Google has brought me here: Make a money claim online - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Is this worth doing for my situation, or perhaps emailing Civil Money Claims (CMC) contactocmc@justice.gov.uk first?

Is the above what eventually takes you to court? If so can anyone explain the exact process... would I have to physically be there? Give statements etc? Could I lose further money?

Thanks for all your help so far.

As already explained... ombudsman are aligned to public sector or regulated industries like the Financial Ombudsman Service for Financial Services (banks, insurers etc) or the Legal Ombudsman (lawyers, barristers etc).

There are some ADR services that call themselves an ombudsman like the "Retail Ombudsman", who have actually renamed themselves now anyway, but these have no legal jurisdiction just contractual agreements with the companies that chose to be covered by them. A Bank cannot chose not to be covered by the FOS by comparison.

None of these cover photographers and even if an ADR service did it would be voluntary on if the photographer chose to be part of it as its not a heavily regulated industry.

I've never fully worked out the difference between CMC and MCOL both cover small claims and have the same fees etc. You can email them but its not an advisory service. 

There are various guides online about how the process works like How to use the small claims court (which.co.uk)

As the claimant you pay all the court fees up front but they are added to the value of your claim (and fees are based on the value of your claim - the link has a calculator). If you win you get it back, hopefully. If you lose then its obviously added to your losses. Its a step by step process you go through adding more detail on each iteration. 

CrippsCorner

Thanks, I will look into that then.

I think they're trying to fear me into submission with wording like:

If you progress with a claim for a refund of the booking fee money, I will defend this claim, based on the contract you agreed to, and additionally I will counterclaim for any cancellation fees I am entitled to.

Of course I'm worried about losing hundreds more, but any further losses would only be due to paying their court fees which would be a small amount? Like the online claim form says it'll only cost me £35... I don't mind paying a bit to fight my corner, but obviously don't want to risk losing a ton more. I've already lost £400 at this point and our wedding was on a very small budget, which is already going to effect our day

davidmcn

Small claims don't come with a risk of paying the other side's costs if it appeared to be a potentially valid claim.

Yes in theory (assuming frustration doesn't apply here) you could be liable for the photogapher's losses for pulling out of the contract, but they'd have to demonstrate those - though I expect they'd have to demonstrate they could have got another job that day, which is probably difficult to do in current circumstances. So in reality their actual costs are probably just whatever preparatory work they had actually done.

Undervalued

CrippsCorner said:

Thanks, I will look into that then.

I think they're trying to fear me into submission with wording like:

If you progress with a claim for a refund of the booking fee money, I will defend this claim, based on the contract you agreed to, and additionally I will counterclaim for any cancellation fees I am entitled to.

Of course I'm worried about losing hundreds more, but any further losses would only be due to paying their court fees which would be a small amount? Like the online claim form says it'll only cost me £35... I don't mind paying a bit to fight my corner, but obviously don't want to risk losing a ton more. I've already lost £400 at this point and our wedding was on a very small budget, which is already going to effect our day

As Davidmcm has indicated your could under some circumstances be liable to pay the photographer for more than just the deposit. Be careful!

Given that you had entered into a contract with this photographer, why did you not check that they were available on your new date?

If they were being deliberately difficult about the new date (perhaps because they would rather just hang on to the deposit than actually do the work) then you would have a case for your money back. However it seems you fixed a new date without checking that your contractor was available so I struggle to see how you will win this. If anybody has frustrated the contract it is you.

Sandtree

CrippsCorner said:

Thanks, I will look into that then.

I think they're trying to fear me into submission with wording like:

If you progress with a claim for a refund of the booking fee money, I will defend this claim, based on the contract you agreed to, and additionally I will counterclaim for any cancellation fees I am entitled to.

Of course I'm worried about losing hundreds more, but any further losses would only be due to paying their court fees which would be a small amount? Like the online claim form says it'll only cost me £35... I don't mind paying a bit to fight my corner, but obviously don't want to risk losing a ton more. I've already lost £400 at this point and our wedding was on a very small budget, which is already going to effect our day

The fact it will go into the small track means that you wont get big bills for solicitors etc if you lose the case (nor can you claim for your own solicitors costs) however if there is a counterclaim it is possible that you could lose that and become liable but the photographer would have to demonstrate that your breach of contract has caused them actual financial loss in excess of the £400 deposit.

Its still not clear when you found the proposed alternative date didnt work for the photographer why you didnt just ask the venue what their next date was to see if you could get something that worked for everyone?

sheramber

If you progress with a claim for a refund of the booking fee money, I will defend this claim, based on the contract you agreed to, and additionally I will counterclaim for any cancellation fees I am entitled to.

How much is the cancellation fee?

unforeseen

In other words, you've really pee'd him off with the changes you've made (did you ever consult him about dates?) and he intends to fight back if you want to take it further

Manxman_in_exile

I'm not sure if the OP has posted all the circumstances here or not, but isn't their problem that they should have argued that the contract was frustrated after the first (and also possibly the second) postponement, and claimed their deposit back at that point? 

By allowing the original contract to be postponed/rolled-over/renewed (whatever - the OP hasn't explained fully what revised arrangement they came to with the photographer) rather than claiming the deposit back immediately, they now find themselves in a situation where any contract with the photographer has not been frustrated by events outside the parties' control - it's just that the OP has agreed to a date without confirming the photograher can attend. That's not frustration, is it?

sheramber

I wouldn't think so as the photographer is available and willing, just not on the date the OP has chosen without consulting him first.
 Other people who had to cancel their wedding will also be booking for this year and somebody presumably got in first.

CrippsCorner

We were offered two new dates by the venue, that being April & September - Reason being no one was sure if we'd be out of lockdown by April.

These were told to the photographers, who basically said okay we are good to go on the April date.

We were later contacted again by the venue to say it looks like the possibility of a full wedding isn't going to be possible in April, so we can change your wedding to September - We agreed. They had no other dates available until 2022.

We then told the photographers, who replied said we can't do the September date, therefore you have cancelled the contract and you will not receive any refund.

We could have waited for date when both the venue and photographers were available, sure, but that would be at least another 6 month postponement, when we have already postponed it 16 months so we simply thought the best option was to get our money back and look elsewhere. Honestly it was a very polite message we sent them but they got so aggressive it really put my back up! Maybe we're the first people to ask for refund.

The wording on the CMA/GOV website is:

As some legal restrictions under the lockdown laws are lifted or eased, it may be the case that a business is no longer completely prevented from providing any of the services it agreed to provide. The CMA’s view is that if the service that can be provided would be radically different to what was agreed, for example, because lockdown laws or other restrictions would prevent key parts of the contract from being performed, then in most cases consumers should be entitled to a refund.

In some circumstances, due to lockdown laws, a contract cannot go ahead as agreed or at all, and is therefore ‘frustrated’. A contract will be frustrated as a matter of law if, due to no fault of the parties, something happens after the contract was entered into which means it can no longer be performed at all or performance would be radically different to what was agreed.

As a result, the contract comes to an end and, where consumers have paid money in advance for services or goods that they have yet to receive, they will generally be entitled to obtain a refund.

I would say the expectations are now 'radically different' because we're not getting photographs of family etc. only being allowed 15 guests, rather than the 120 we originally invted.