Altered timesheet

Mickey666

marmite1979 said:

Mickey666 said:

Without knowing more about the company and organisation it's a bit difficult to follow exactly what's happening here.
The first thing I'd be doing is keeping copies of every timesheet that I submit.  Then, if my pay does not tally with what I have submitted I'd take it up with my manager based on the timesheet I submitted.

Not too difficult. Shes changing a timesheet after I've signed it, and she uses exactly the same roster as I see at home to check off it's correct. Due to the time I finish timesheets cannot be handed in when office staff are present, so printers/photocopiers etc are off. Anyhow the shifts worked are availble to view online if it says Mon 08:00 - 20:00 then thats what my timesheet will (unless I've made a mistake) She is altering the signed paper timesheeit whilst seeing this on the screen???.

Take a photo with your phone?

AskAsk

marmite1979 said:

AskAsk said:

marmite1979 said:

With previous managers or a supervisor a call would be made to the employee should a timesheet differ from a roster i.e a mistake or an extra hour or two added as overtime, to confirm. If anything including a signiture was missed you woud either sign it or send a new updated timesheet.
The current manager changes the timesheet which is already signed by the employee without informing them first as to why. If they followed the previous system then I'd explain that those hours were worked and are on the roster as proof.
If I filled in the timesheet in an attempt to fraudulenty claim for hours not worked or even not authorised by the manager direct or via the supervisor i'd be dismissed for fraud.

The point of this thread is to assatain whether its acceptable or even legal to alter an already signed document without the knowledge of the employee so it results in them being paid incorrectly?

Without going into detail there is a long standing isue with the manager in question messing up an losing mine and others timesheets after they've been handed in. I'm not going to elaborate more on this.

with regard to a matter of law, i do not believe there is anything illegal about what the manager has done.  as he has to sign off the timesheet, he can change it himself before he signs it off, but a manager would normally only do this after he has queried it with the employee, as he could refuse point blank to sign it and put it through a dispute process to get to the bottom of the discrepancy.

he has skipped that dispute process so you may be able to raise a complaint with HR or the manager above him as to your non involvement in the process, effectively you have the right to dispute what had been authorised and paid to you.

The manager authorise the roster prior to me booking the shift, then the same manager signs the sends off the timesheet i've signed once its been worked. There arent any unusual or off roster hours added. They are using the same online roster that I use to check my wages against. Somehow they change the timesheets that I sign then send to payroll.
With payroll, the department manager & supervisor, my employer(Who I signed the contract to work for) and the managers own superior collegues being aware of the much larger mistakes being made by them due to trying to get behind them. Once ones resolved another crops up.

all you can do is dispute your pay with payroll, or whoever is responsible for your pay.  and the manager will need to be dealt with by someone else if they are changing the timesheets without going through the proper process as they are effectively authorising incorrect timesheets.

hopefully it will be sorted out sooner or later but she must doing it for a particular reason.  maybe she doesn't want to let on that your department is running over budget by trying to reduce pay costs.

marmite1979

AskAsk said:

marmite1979 said:

AskAsk said:

marmite1979 said:

With previous managers or a supervisor a call would be made to the employee should a timesheet differ from a roster i.e a mistake or an extra hour or two added as overtime, to confirm. If anything including a signiture was missed you woud either sign it or send a new updated timesheet.
The current manager changes the timesheet which is already signed by the employee without informing them first as to why. If they followed the previous system then I'd explain that those hours were worked and are on the roster as proof.
If I filled in the timesheet in an attempt to fraudulenty claim for hours not worked or even not authorised by the manager direct or via the supervisor i'd be dismissed for fraud.

The point of this thread is to assatain whether its acceptable or even legal to alter an already signed document without the knowledge of the employee so it results in them being paid incorrectly?

Without going into detail there is a long standing isue with the manager in question messing up an losing mine and others timesheets after they've been handed in. I'm not going to elaborate more on this.

with regard to a matter of law, i do not believe there is anything illegal about what the manager has done.  as he has to sign off the timesheet, he can change it himself before he signs it off, but a manager would normally only do this after he has queried it with the employee, as he could refuse point blank to sign it and put it through a dispute process to get to the bottom of the discrepancy.

he has skipped that dispute process so you may be able to raise a complaint with HR or the manager above him as to your non involvement in the process, effectively you have the right to dispute what had been authorised and paid to you.

The manager authorise the roster prior to me booking the shift, then the same manager signs the sends off the timesheet i've signed once its been worked. There arent any unusual or off roster hours added. They are using the same online roster that I use to check my wages against. Somehow they change the timesheets that I sign then send to payroll.
With payroll, the department manager & supervisor, my employer(Who I signed the contract to work for) and the managers own superior collegues being aware of the much larger mistakes being made by them due to trying to get behind them. Once ones resolved another crops up.

all you can do is dispute your pay with payroll, or whoever is responsible for your pay.  and the manager will need to be dealt with by someone else if they are changing the timesheets without going through the proper process as they are effectively authorising incorrect timesheets.

hopefully it will be sorted out sooner or later but she must doing it for a particular reason.  maybe she doesn't want to let on that your department is running over budget by trying to reduce pay costs.

The amount of money for the recent mistakes is relativley peanuts. And even then it gets paid in the next month, so whats saved in one is taken out the next.
I've also seen that the online roster for one shift is wrong, it matches the wage paid but wouldn't have matched the timesheet i've handed in. This now makes me suspicous that she might be changing that roster to cover her tracks in light of the earlier ''adjustment''.
I may look for a full wage and timesheet check for the 13  months shes been authorising and sending them off to payroll.
80 % of wage slips within this time have been short, and have been paid at a later date.

Manxman_in_exile

AskAsk said:

marmite1979 said:

With previous managers or a supervisor a call would be made to the employee should a timesheet differ from a roster i.e a mistake or an extra hour or two added as overtime, to confirm. If anything including a signiture was missed you woud either sign it or send a new updated timesheet.
The current manager changes the timesheet which is already signed by the employee without informing them first as to why. If they followed the previous system then I'd explain that those hours were worked and are on the roster as proof.
If I filled in the timesheet in an attempt to fraudulenty claim for hours not worked or even not authorised by the manager direct or via the supervisor i'd be dismissed for fraud.

The point of this thread is to assatain whether its acceptable or even legal to alter an already signed document without the knowledge of the employee so it results in them being paid incorrectly?

Without going into detail there is a long standing isue with the manager in question messing up an losing mine and others timesheets after they've been handed in. I'm not going to elaborate more on this.

with regard to a matter of law, i do not believe there is anything illegal about what the manager has done. 

I would suggest that if the hours are being changed when the manager knows that their amendment is wrong and will adversely affect the OP's pay, then that most certainly is a criminal offence.  (I think it used to be called obtaining a pecuniary advantage under the old Theft Act - but I'm sure it still amounts to an offence even if it's called something different and it's under different legislation).

The fact that the OP says that their hours catch up the following month - but that other adjustments have then been made by then - is irrelevant if the OP always ends up being some hours down each month.  (It's a bit like what used to be called "teeming and lading" committed by accounts staff receiving payments).

However this all sounds so bizarre - and the OP has said they will not discuss certain aspects any further - I'd want to be absolutely certain I knew what was happening before making any formal complaint.  I don't understand how the manager can have previously admitted altering time sheets without being challenged as to why?

AskAsk

Manxman_in_exile said:

AskAsk said:

marmite1979 said:

With previous managers or a supervisor a call would be made to the employee should a timesheet differ from a roster i.e a mistake or an extra hour or two added as overtime, to confirm. If anything including a signiture was missed you woud either sign it or send a new updated timesheet.
The current manager changes the timesheet which is already signed by the employee without informing them first as to why. If they followed the previous system then I'd explain that those hours were worked and are on the roster as proof.
If I filled in the timesheet in an attempt to fraudulenty claim for hours not worked or even not authorised by the manager direct or via the supervisor i'd be dismissed for fraud.

The point of this thread is to assatain whether its acceptable or even legal to alter an already signed document without the knowledge of the employee so it results in them being paid incorrectly?

Without going into detail there is a long standing isue with the manager in question messing up an losing mine and others timesheets after they've been handed in. I'm not going to elaborate more on this.

with regard to a matter of law, i do not believe there is anything illegal about what the manager has done. 

I would suggest that if the hours are being changed when the manager knows that their amendment is wrong and will adversely affect the OP's pay, then that most certainly is a criminal offence.  (I think it used to be called obtaining a pecuniary advantage under the old Theft Act - but I'm sure it still amounts to an offence even if it's called something different and it's under different legislation).

The fact that the OP says that their hours catch up the following month - but that other adjustments have then been made by then - is irrelevant if the OP always ends up being some hours down each month.  (It's a bit like what used to be called "teeming and lading" committed by accounts staff receiving payments).

However this all sounds so bizarre - and the OP has said they will not discuss certain aspects any further - I'd want to be absolutely certain I knew what was happening before making any formal complaint.  I don't understand how the manager can have previously admitted altering time sheets without being challenged as to why?

i would have thought it would not be classes as a criminal offence as the manager has not stolen any money.  she hasn't profitted from the changes, or indeed the company, from the OP's answer.  a theft can only happen if something had been stolen by the person who committed the crime.

this is simply the manager deliberately messing up the system for whatever reason, so it is an internal problem that the company needs to deal with and not something that needs the law to be involved.

Manxman_in_exile

The offence I referred to under the old Theft Act of obtaining a pecuniary advantage is apparently now covered by the Fraud Act 2006.

Assuming I've got the legislation right, I would have thought that the actions of the OP's manager definitely amounted to fraud under s2 (Fraud by misrepresentation) and probably also under s4 (Fraud by abuse of position).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents

marmite1979

Popped an email to the Union, they are/should be aware of the the issues that were happening before.
This appears to be new one she's upto.  You'd be horrified if I could tell you the sector she's responsible for as she's already been demoted a few levels and ended up here.

Manxman_in_exile

If you are in a union then that is the way to go.  Even if I'm right and it could be fraud, the police are unlikely to be interested and will refer you to Action Fraud - who are 100% dedicated to inaction