18mo after moving into new build, told our garden fence temporary, will now lose 31.5msq

moneymattersnatter

2nd_time_buyer said:

es5595 said:

Well done on not just rolling over OP, I'd contact your landscaper and see if they can do a 'best guess' on cost to move everything over, plus the cost of you looking at the 'new boundary' and feeling happy, and give them that as a one-time offer, on the proviso that they also pay all associated fees and legal costs. They might well decide its not worth it!

I think this is good advice. Just for the purposes of wild speculation... what is the cost for "looking at the 'new boundary' and feeling happy". For me a figure £5k would seem too little whilst £20k would seem too much.

It's odd.  At the moment I'd just rather not deal with it.  I've got to work on building my business and homeschooling and surviving a pandemic just like everyone else, not on this. So, if there is an option of just telling them to deal with it between themselves and assure me no demolition crew have been booked, that would be my preferred option.  Failing that, my expectations of compensation depending on time frames, how many days I'm losing to "work" on this, and how much it triggers my health.  Full disclosure: I was gang raped so having two property developers non-consensually coming into what I thought was my legal space is really problematic, I'm not going to lie. 
I'm really grateful for everyone's ongoing guidance 🙌 I've taken your advice and asked for a quote from the gardener too, just in case.  Thanks again.  It all really helps!

moneymattersnatter

gingercordial said:

moneymattersnatter said:

AdrianC said:

Are A3 and A9's garden boundaries marked out yet, to refer to?

How does the relative width of the walkway on the R121 side of R122 compare?

A8-A9 have been living here a long time.  A1 is the building site. 
I've created an account on Garden Law, which was verified via email but once I log in, I can't post and am told I can't access their forums.  Apologies if it's my brain going haywire under stress, but am I missing something simple?  
When I'm not logged in, I can see how many interesting topics there are!  

This photo alongside the land registry plan makes me think your fence IS correct.

Your fence as it gets to the end of your garden should meet the edge of plot A9 on a flat bit of their fence (highlighted in yellow) and NOT at the corner of their fence (blue arrow) as it turns.



And that is exactly what the photo shows as the real situation on the ground:


Whereas if this had happened in error, your fence would surely be hitting A9's fence at or very very close to that corner.


So it looks to me that what you have is in accordance with the land registry plan, which is what shows your legal ownership.

The measurement at the back is 14.19m

AdrianC

moneymattersnatter said:

AdrianC said:

Are A3 and A9's garden boundaries marked out yet, to refer to?

How does the relative width of the walkway on the R121 side of R122 compare?

Sorry, I missed the element about comparing to the R121. Here are the measurements.  For each side. Roughly 40cm difference... coincidence? 

How about at the front corner of your house...? That, from the diagram, looks a similar width to the passageway in question. You'll still have a 110cm passageway - which is a perfectly reasonable width.

From my understanding...

Red is 196cm
Blue is 151cm - we just don't know if that's to the blue or brown boundary.
How about green...?

moneymattersnatter

I'm afraid I can't tell you  - there is no fence, beyond the gate.  We're a 'no fence' property in the front EXCEPT between the developers. (That's what we were told, anyway!)
Whilst measuring before I managed to speak to R121 (Socially distanced). Her daughter is a lawyer and she said it's absurd. Like a previous poster has said is the whole development a few cm out, here and there?! She'll ask her to call me this evening. I don't know yet (conversations with my husband difficult whilst he's working) but I'm conscious our legal cover may be capped and this could get expensive quite quickly, so I'll take all the advice I can get before getting into billable hours! 😆

mrschaucer

It should be up to the developers to prove to your insurance people what they are stating about the measurements, not up to you to disprove it.  They are the ones with all the plans, maps, surveys etc etc.  It should be easy for them to come up with something convincing?

2nd_time_buyer

moneymattersnatter said:

2nd_time_buyer said:

es5595 said:

Well done on not just rolling over OP, I'd contact your landscaper and see if they can do a 'best guess' on cost to move everything over, plus the cost of you looking at the 'new boundary' and feeling happy, and give them that as a one-time offer, on the proviso that they also pay all associated fees and legal costs. They might well decide its not worth it!

I think this is good advice. Just for the purposes of wild speculation... what is the cost for "looking at the 'new boundary' and feeling happy". For me a figure £5k would seem too little whilst £20k would seem too much.

It's odd.  At the moment I'd just rather not deal with it.  I've got to work on building my business and homeschooling and surviving a pandemic just like everyone else, not on this. So, if there is an option of just telling them to deal with it between themselves and assure me no demolition crew have been booked, that would be my preferred option.  Failing that, my expectations of compensation depending on time frames, how many days I'm losing to "work" on this, and how much it triggers my health.  Full disclosure: I was gang raped so having two property developers non-consensually coming into what I thought was my legal space is really problematic, I'm not going to lie. 
I'm really grateful for everyone's ongoing guidance 🙌 I've taken your advice and asked for a quote from the gardener too, just in case.  Thanks again.  It all really helps!

That sounds utterly !!!!!! and I'm not going to pretend to understand the ramifications for the emotional trauma of the above.  
However, in this instance it might help to try to think of it as a business transaction. For the developers, they made a mistake which they need to resolve as cheaply as possible - it is not personal.

You hold a pretty strong hand of cards. Indeed, I imagine a lot of people would look at it as opportunity to exploit the developer to gain an inflated price. However, if you go in too high then you obviously reduce the chance of finding agreement. The quicker and more amicably you can resolve it the more likely it is is to come to a fair and acceptable resolution. Otherwise, the compensation is unlikely to fully cover the emotional costs of fighting it. Remember solicitors do not always entirely have your best interests at heart - they get paid more the more it drags on.

pinkteapot

Going back to the start, was it your developer or the other one next door who told you your fence needed moving? 
Did they say WHY exactly? Have you asked them on what basis they think it's wrong. We're all guessing at it, but to have a copy of exactly what they've said (if it was in writing) would be very useful. 

Seashell517

moneymattersnatter said:

I'm afraid I can't tell you  - there is no fence, beyond the gate.  We're a 'no fence' property in the front EXCEPT between the developers. (That's what we were told, anyway!)
Whilst measuring before I managed to speak to R121 (Socially distanced). Her daughter is a lawyer and she said it's absurd. Like a previous poster has said is the whole development a few cm out, here and there?! She'll ask her to call me this evening. I don't know yet (conversations with my husband difficult whilst he's working) but I'm conscious our legal cover may be capped and this could get expensive quite quickly, so I'll take all the advice I can get before getting into billable hours! 😆

On the plan it looks like there's a path down the side of the house. If that's patio flagstones or something similar, what's the width of those at the edge of the house there?

seradane

moneymattersnatter said:

gingercordial said:

moneymattersnatter said:

AdrianC said:

Are A3 and A9's garden boundaries marked out yet, to refer to?

How does the relative width of the walkway on the R121 side of R122 compare?

A8-A9 have been living here a long time.  A1 is the building site. 
I've created an account on Garden Law, which was verified via email but once I log in, I can't post and am told I can't access their forums.  Apologies if it's my brain going haywire under stress, but am I missing something simple?  
When I'm not logged in, I can see how many interesting topics there are!  

This photo alongside the land registry plan makes me think your fence IS correct.

Your fence as it gets to the end of your garden should meet the edge of plot A9 on a flat bit of their fence (highlighted in yellow) and NOT at the corner of their fence (blue arrow) as it turns.



And that is exactly what the photo shows as the real situation on the ground:


Whereas if this had happened in error, your fence would surely be hitting A9's fence at or very very close to that corner.


So it looks to me that what you have is in accordance with the land registry plan, which is what shows your legal ownership.

The measurement at the back is 14.19m

Are you able to measure the distance from the corner of your plot to where the fence bends (i.e. the bit between A9 and A3)?

moneymattersnatter

So many lovely posts, I'll try and cover the questions:

Going back to the start; OK, so I got a call on Monday from the Customer Services manager saying something's come up. Do I mind if he comes out to check something on site? I agreed. He's lovely, I like him. He measured up yesterday AM then asked to come in.  Covid and all, we agreed but on pretext he's at work (our home) and we can keep 2m distance.  He explained that roughly ten days ago Property Developer A (I'll say 'A' from here.  This is the developer next door) got in touch with Property Developer R (I'll say 'R' from here, this is ours) big wigs.  Now that A are ready to start building A1 and A2 they've realised they won't fit.  They need to move our fence for our new neighbours to be able to get into their house.
He asked if we knew the fence was temporary? We laughed.  As an aside, when we had the landscaping work done, we needed tonnes of soil brought in through a side panel.  I'm just off the phone to our gardener who said this is a £3.5-4K fence.  Great quality, posts deeply set in cement.  His professional view is this is not a temporary fence and they're trying to kid us on. 

Anway, the Customer Service Manager did admit he'd been through our whole sales files and sees nothing on record that we were ever told that this was a temporary fence. He flagged they are also aware that we've spent over £20K landscaping (we had to work with R and A to get the landscaping done) and that this was going to be a problem for us 'lovely customers' (his words, not mine!) 🤣.  
I explained that although I don't do property development, I do recognise the significance of the error, how many people in both A and R failed to flag this sooner? From engineers, fencing, conveyancers and solicitors.  It will be important for them to understand who/what/why/where/when this went wrong, and why we should be the ones paying the price of their error. 
I had to take a call and dashed off, confirming actions are for them to come back to us with options, our legal position (given we used their recommended one) and timeframes.  I forgot to give them a deadline of when.  My husband did the farewells and he's confirmed no date was set for them to come back to us with the options.  
My gardener was hilarious.  He is actually a builder by trade and explained that by far the easiest thing for them to do is take 20cm from between A1 and A2.  Or, between A2 and the pavement (all yet to be built). Or 13.33cm from each.   He thinks they're chancing their arm with us and we just need to state resolutely this is their problem. 
I feel much better now as the day draws to a close. Keeping my MH is going to be really important so I can't express how significantly most of you have helped today.  When faced with two Goliaths, you've really given me strength and I can't thank you enough.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.  🙏🏼  I genuinely recognise we're not the only ones facing challenges and that really, things are a lot, lot worse, for a lot of people.  So, I'm trying to keep perspective.