Self-employment grant 4 announcement won't happen till March

Fmckeown361

Hi all 

I have not been eligible for support from SEISS as I have a permanent job and permanent income however I own a small business which brings in less profit than my main job.

 The current overheads on my business are expensive and without people using my business I still have to pay overheads with no money coming in through my business to pay the overheads. 

Is there likely to be support for me as at this point my main job is covering my own mortgage, car, bills, aswell as now the business bills and overheads leaving me short every month. 

Thanks 

Jeremy535897

Fmckeown361 said:

Hi all 

I have not been eligible for support from SEISS as I have a permanent job and permanent income however I own a small business which brings in less profit than my main job.

 The current overheads on my business are expensive and without people using my business I still have to pay overheads with no money coming in through my business to pay the overheads. 

Is there likely to be support for me as at this point my main job is covering my own mortgage, car, bills, aswell as now the business bills and overheads leaving me short every month. 

Thanks 

Nobody knows yet, but I doubt it. Were you not eligible for the property based grants or a BBL?

Grumpy_chap

Fmckeown361 said:

Hi all 

I have not been eligible for support from SEISS as I have a permanent job and permanent income however I own a small business which brings in less profit than my main job.

 The current overheads on my business are expensive and without people using my business I still have to pay overheads with no money coming in through my business to pay the overheads. 

Is there likely to be support for me as at this point my main job is covering my own mortgage, car, bills, aswell as now the business bills and overheads leaving me short every month. 

Thanks 

What is the "side" business and what are the associated overheads?  I assume the "side" business is as sole-trader.
Can these overheads be reduced in any way?
I would not be optimistic that future updates to grants will extend to include people for whom self-employment is less than 50% of total income.  What percent of your income is the "side" business?

strandedwonderer

right, grumpy folks and others of the forum,,,,Im a sole trader,,, I sell a certain, very popular brand of bicycle wich is why i have boomed as you all put it, I used to average one or two sales a week wich would keep me trundling along nicely,,,,and because of the pandemic obviosly everybody wanted one!!! so when it comes to sorting my papers out for the accountant it will probaly be toppling over 50k....because of the extra seis grants!!!,,, the 50k proffit looks great on paper,, but the realitly is, all that moneys gone into previous loans and living costs stock and so on.....but  after giving my head a wobble and looking at this from others points of view, I think i am goign to repay SEIS No 3, and not bother going for Seis 4,,,, under my circumstances from previous comments,... I Currently have an order for more bikes,, and no income at the moment.... is the bounce back loan suitable for me ?, . I do my business with a current account..so if i wanted to get a bounce back loan "if that loan is suitable for my situation" ? do i need to register for a busness account to get it ? or should i just get another loan from somehwere else??.

Jeremy535897

I think you may find it very difficult to access a BBL, although if you can, it's the best option. It sounds like it would be worthwhile talking to your bank about now becoming a proper business customer. It may also be sensible to get some proper financial advice and do a business plan. It may be that you can access a start up loan. See https://www.startuploans.co.uk/

Grumpy_chap

strandedwonderer said:

right, grumpy folks and others of the forum,,,,Im a sole trader,,, I sell a certain, very popular brand of bicycle wich is why i have boomed as you all put it, I used to average one or two sales a week wich would keep me trundling along nicely,,,,and because of the pandemic obviosly everybody wanted one!!! so when it comes to sorting my papers out for the accountant it will probaly be toppling over 50k....because of the extra seis grants!!!,,, the 50k proffit looks great on paper,, but the realitly is, all that moneys gone into previous loans and living costs stock and so on.....but  after giving my head a wobble and looking at this from others points of view, I think i am goign to repay SEIS No 3, and not bother going for Seis 4,,,, under my circumstances from previous comments,... I Currently have an order for more bikes,, and no income at the moment.... is the bounce back loan suitable for me ?, . I do my business with a current account..so if i wanted to get a bounce back loan "if that loan is suitable for my situation" ? do i need to register for a busness account to get it ? or should i just get another loan from somehwere else??.

I am glad that business is going well for you, and also accept that the upturn in work has created some cashflow issues that you surely did not expect.

Before you do anything, can I strongly recommend that you engage professional advice (from an Accountant) who can give what appears to be much needed support on how to structure the business finances going forwards, for example:

• Best form of business structure (remain as sole-trader or Ltd Co.) and time to make any change (taking eligibility for possible future COVID-support into consideration)
• How to structure your business banking - use of a personal account is not recommended and often against the Ts&Cs of the bank
• VAT registration (if your profits are approaching £50k and you are selling bicycles, then turnover may be approaching or above the point at which VAT-registration is required)
• Routes to manage cash-flow, and financing options to allow the business to grow and acquire stock so that lack of finance does not preclude the business from maximising the current opportunities
• Opportunities to "manage" the profits to below £50k if that is beneficial (in terms of personal income tax bands and also not being precluded from future COVID-support that may be announced)
• I agree that repay SEISS 3 seems correct, but get the professional opinion before you do
• Review of SEISS 4 eligibility when the rules are published
• Consider eligibility for BBLS, or alternative sources of finance

I think obtaining BBLS may be very difficult as you do not operate with a business bank account already, assuming you are eligible otherwise.  BBLS requires the business to declare that it has been adversely affected by coronavirus and that may be difficult to establish in your case.  However, the measure of "adversely affected" is open to different interpretation to that for SEISS 3, so it is certainly worth investigating with your professional advisors (Accountant).

As you can see, there is a lot more here that you should be considering outwith simply COVID-matters, SEISS grants and BBLS.  Far more than can be sensibly covered through an internet forum.  Making this investment of time now and the costs for an Accountant's professional advice will likely reap rewards that you (your business) can reap for years to come.  Paid for advice from an Accountant also comes with the benefit of PI cover so, if there were a professional recommendation from the Accountant to retain the SEISS 3 funds (even though that seems unlikely from the content of this thread), at least you would have some defence of due diligence in the event of subsequently being found in error and mitigate any penalties.

Good luck

macman

If the OP's trading profit is already at or approaching £50K on bike sales, then I'd assume that they are already VAT-registered? If not, then the mark up on these must be considerably more than I would have imagined! And the OP is having to pay VAT on the purchases which cannot be recovered.

As suggested, this business appears to have got to the stage where professional advice is urgently required in terms of structure and tax planning. A lot more businesses go under due to cashflow issues when they are growing fast than when they are shrinking slowly.

strandedwonderer

thats all well and good, but this year I think im going to apply for a one off over the VAT threshold,,,, as my usual business is used equiptment wich I dont pay vat on,,,so I dont wat to charge vat either,, its all somthing i want to avoid, it all seems like to much hassle!

im pretty sure once lock down is over and the world is getting back to normal,.,,my sales will go back to there yearly pre vat levels they used to be, so im comfy and happy with things the way they where before lockdown and pretty soon I think it will go back there, so for now ill save the proffesional advice for further down the line....will await to see the next announcment in march and see what to do then.....ill be back for more advice then I think....in the mean time ill take a load of info from here and my current situation and let my accountant know thanks for all your input chaps n chappetts

Fionafizzwhizz

I’ve been trying to find out which months each of the Self Employed Income Support scheme Grants covered in 2020. From a long webchat a few minutes ago with an HRMC customer service person, it appears that for the self employed, October 2020 was not covered by the SEISS grants since ‘restrictions had been lifted’??? I thought that eligible self employed people were supposed to have been given grants from April 2020 right through to April 2021. Ie. First grant covering April - June, second grant covering July-September, third grant covering October-December. (With the 4th grant level yet to be announced). 

But it appears this isn’t the case. So did anybody manage to get any other grant or support to cover the month of October which apparently wasn’t covered by the SEISS grant since - according to the webchat I just had - ‘restrictions were lifted’ in October .... ??? Not for me as a gigging musician they weren’t! Any thoughts from anybody about this please? Did anyone else question the coverage by the SEISS? 

Cheers. 

Fiona 

Jeremy535897

The first SEISS grant was said by HMRC to cover March to May, but this was downplayed later on. The second grant was not particularly specific. SEISS 3 was targeted specifically at the period 1 November 2020 to 29 January 2021. I don't think there's any point in seeking to allocate grants to months and then point to a gap.

Nor am I sure Martin Lewis's piece on BBC a few minutes ago was entirely helpful, highlighting the possibility that delaying the details of SEISS 4 to budget day might mean they might change the basis on which it is calculated.