Bank Mis-processes Solicitor's Payment for Sale

colsten

Steves2 said:

thanks @xylophone.  I think it is incredibly strange that it is the same banks involved which is why I cannot understand the banks taking it more seriously.  We will certainly be seeking compensation. I am finding it incredibly stressful.  

What about the solicitors, were they the same, too? 

Steves2

@colsten I haven’t asked that will do.  Both banked with Lloyds.  

RetSol

No probs, @Steves2. See also https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6236286/email-for-hsbc-ceo-or-complaints#latest. 

Armorica

cpx - as difficult as it may sound, you need to get a precise answer from M&S bank as that will clarify liability. Specifically, at which point did the mistake get made that routed the payment "overseas".
- Did your solicitor provide the incorrect details (that seems to have been ruled out?)
- Did Lloyds input the wrong details (that seems to have been ruled out - and unlikely if your solicitor used electronic banking as it would have been automated; more likely if paper-based).
- Did HSBC ever receive the funds. And did they pass them onto M&S bank or pass them overseas. (Passing the funds to M&S bank should have been an automated process - I don't know how they could have messed this up either. That doesn't mean they haven't) << this seems to be the one they are claiming - that HSBC did not pass onto them?
- Did M&S bank ever receive the funds? And if so did they somehow pass them overseas? (As below, fairly epic mistake). 

As a customer you simply are not liable unless you gave the wrong details to your solicitor. It is still incredibly odd your money was somehow transferred overseas. It takes quite an epic mistake to somehow convert a domestic into an international payment.

Most of this is based on your M&S account being a bog standard current account. (Not an ISA, or mortgage, or credit card or anything where the reference field might come into play).

In terms of making a complaint, has your solicitor made progress with their complaint. This ought to be easier (although also time consuming for them) because it's their instruction which has been messed up. It's a little more fuzzy as an unknown unknown because the money never seems to have touched your account.

And while I'm afraid it's not the most entertaining read but https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/finalised-guidance/fca-approach-payment-services-electronic-money-2017.pdf is your friend.  Relevant parts include:
- 8.183 i.e. your solicitor should notify their bank of an incorrectly executed payment
- 8.298 onwards is relevant if your solicitor did in fact provide the wrong information
- 8.307 is possibly the most relevant. If your solicitor's bank incorrectly executed the payment. The solicitor's bank needs to evidence that the transaction reached you. If it can't, then at the start of 8.309 if refers to the failure instead lying with your provide (HSBC/M&S bank). 
- It looks like M&S is already in breach of its regulatory obligations for you although HSBC as an intermediary does make it fuzzy. If you share the proof with them (from your solicitor's bank), that the money made it to them, and quote 8.312 of the FCA's PSD2 Approach document at them and Regulation 91 of the Payment Services Regulations 2017 - this says they should *immediately* refund you. "If the payer’s PSP can prove that the payee’s PSP received the correct amount and beneficiary details on time, the payee’s PSP is liable to its own customer. It must immediately make the funds available to its customer and, where applicable, credit the amount to the customer’s payment account. "

Happy to discuss via private messages if useful.

cpx2

@everyone - many thanks for all your help.

@Ballard - "If Lloyds have passed on the correct information then they're not at fault but they should be chasing with the receiving bank upon request from the remitter."

Exactly. But the issue here is that it is not us that have the relationship with Lloyds, but our solicitor. We have made pretty clear we want them to chase Lloyds a couple of times, but they are just ignoring our request. I'm going to try and make it even clearer. What I cannot fathom is why they are being so unprofessional. I feel I must be missing something.

cpx2

@Armorica - many thanks for the info - really helpful.

We have what we think is original documentary evidence that Lloyds gave the correct instructions and that they were told the funds cleared. (I'd have assumed that this would be that the funds reached the nominated account).

We have emails from M&S where they say HSBC received the funds and then paid it into an overseas account.

You say "As a customer you simply are not liable unless you gave the wrong details to your solicitor." and for me this translates into that they should make the payment.

You say "In terms of making a complaint, has your solicitor made progress with their complaint. This ought to be easier (although also time consuming for them) because it's their instruction which has been messed up. It's a little more fuzzy as an unknown unknown because the money never seems to have touched your account." We have been asking the solicitor to take this up with Lloyds, but they have completely ignored our requests. A couple of times. I find this odd and wonder whether there is a twist to the situation that we are not aware of.

Thanks for all your references, reading through them now. They are REALLY useful Let's hope they have the desired effect.

Time4T_Accounts

cpx, I would get the complaints process underway with the solicitor if you haven’t already done so. If you don’t get any joy then simply suggest that you’re going to go to the Legal Ombudsman : if you do have to go to the Ombudsman then it will result in the solicitor having to pay a non-refundable investigation fee which will likely cancel out any profit they’ve made on your matter. Further, the complaints record is taken into account when they renew their Professional Indemnity Insurance. So, if they’re well managed then a formal complaint should be treated seriously to avoid all of that.

Armorica

No problem. A charitable view would be just that your solicitor is really busy given the forthcoming end of the stamp duty holiday and as they've sent the money they think it's not their problem anymore. As they seem to have given you evidence that the payment has been made - they may have a point. I don't think your solicitor has any financial liability to you - that's been discharged. Someone more familiar with the codes that apply to solicitors can advise whether they are under a duty to pursue a complaint through Lloyds though.

If you were banking directly with HSBC - the case would be crystal clear. HSBC would be liable to provide you with an immediate credit of the funds. 

(Edited - sorry, I keep typing refund which it technically isn't!)

naedanger

cpx2 said:

@Armorica - many thanks for the info - really helpful.

We have what we think is original documentary evidence that Lloyds gave the correct instructions and that they were told the funds cleared. (I'd have assumed that this would be that the funds reached the nominated account).

We have emails from M&S where they say HSBC received the funds and then paid it into an overseas account.

You say "As a customer you simply are not liable unless you gave the wrong details to your solicitor." and for me this translates into that they should make the payment.

You say "In terms of making a complaint, has your solicitor made progress with their complaint. This ought to be easier (although also time consuming for them) because it's their instruction which has been messed up. It's a little more fuzzy as an unknown unknown because the money never seems to have touched your account." We have been asking the solicitor to take this up with Lloyds, but they have completely ignored our requests. A couple of times. I find this odd and wonder whether there is a twist to the situation that we are not aware of.

Thanks for all your references, reading through them now. They are REALLY useful Let's hope they have the desired effect.

Have you spoken to the partner at the solicitors responsible for customer complaints? Explain that you not satisfied that they are doing enough to inform you about the actions they are taking to resolve this issue they have with their banking arrangements. You would like to know what they are doing, what happens next, timescales etc.

cpx2

@Armorica - thanks again for all your help.

But what I don't understand is that if you follow the contracts trail, it is the solicitors that have the contractual relationship at the start of the trail. So, I'd have thought that they are clearly responsible for at least mentioning the payment has gone astray. I've worked in the financial sector and my guess is that HSBC could at this stage argue, given the procedures, that they have not been advised by the payer yet that the funds have gone astray, so the clock has not started ticking. 

So a simple email officially confirming the funds have not arrived and asking for a confirmation would seem to be very little to ask.

I would be inclined to be more charitable if I has not asked directly three times and received effectively a stiff ignoring each time - not even an attempt at an explanation. (Also, I'm dealing with the practice manager who is responsible for (so-called) professional practice - lawyers aren't what they used to be.)
Also, I find your comment "I don't think your solicitor has any financial liability to you - that's been discharged. " Is that true? Surely it is only discharged if it arrives? Given that at one level the transaction is between the payer and the payee - the contract is not complete until the payment is made. Maybe I'm missing something.  Maybe contracts aren't what they used to be.