Bitcoin

eskbanker

NottinghamKnight said:

I don't think your isa is simply a savings account if you hold vls in it though.

Technically, every ISA is a savings account, given what the 'SA' stands for!  But yes, it's not an accurate or meaningful characterisation of a S&S ISA....

onthebench

ChilliBob said:

Linton said:

Type_45 said:

bowlhead99 said:

Type_45 said:

I would far rather invest in bitcoin through my ISA for tax reasons. Does anyone know of a fund where this is possible? 

Cryptocurrency isn't an allowable asset type for an ISA, and ISAs can't hold derivatives such as CFDs and options to get exposure that way. Technically, ISAs are allowed to hold exchange traded notes / exchange traded certificates where the thing traded on a stock exchange is a loan note backed by the bitcoin, with an annual management fee, just as you can buy ETFs and ETCs listed on a stock exchange and backed by gold. 

However, unfortunately the FCA decided to ban the sale of cryptocurrency derivatives and ETN-type products to UK retail customers a few months ago, which became effective this week. So the mainstream UK brokers and investment platforms which could offer these to retail investors up to last month, will no longer allow you to buy them in your ISA now. If you have them you can keep them, and dispose of them whenever you like (I still have one in my pension, and have made some sales in the last couple of months as the price went crazy), but if you don't have them they won't sell you them now.

FCA bans the sale of crypto-derivatives to retail consumers | FCA

As the FCA ban only extends to crypto derivatives such as ETCs / ETNs  rather than to funds which hold a broad portfolio of assets with diversification of risk (such as open ended funds and investment trusts), it would be possible to take 'exposure' to Bitcoin amongst a bunch of other things if you found an investment manager running an ISA-qualifying fund or IT which had BTC  or a BTC ETF as a portion of its own portfolio. 

There are a couple in the US (for example Grayscale has a Bitcoin Trust  running as an ETF, and some other mutual funds or ETFs invest into it). However, I'm not aware of any at the moment which would be accessible inside a UK ISA, because those US products won't issue the required prospectus and KID documents meeting the standards which would be required if offering to UK investors.

If you are looking to take exposure while minimising taxes - as an alternative to buying in an ISA you could use certain derivatives such as spreadbets. However, due to the FCA ban you wouldn't be able to do this as a retail investor and would need to sign up to a provider such as IG.com as a professional client.  If you don't have hundreds of thousands of liquid assets or a history of consistently placing leveraged trades of significant value they are unlikely to accept you as such, and you would lose all 'retail customer' protections.

Thank you for that. Well, looks like Bitcoin in an ISA won't be available for a while then. I will just stick to using Coinbase and make sure that I don't make more than £12,300 in any given financial year (which I'm in no danger of anyway).

You should still keep records of buys and sells for 7 years as  HMRC could ask for the information if, for example, they suspect you of avoiding tax.

Unrelated to crypto, so, if someone was a 'day trader' or moved stuff around quite a bit then the record keeping sounds rather onerous? 
I'm not intending to be that person but keen to know what sort of record keeping I need to sort out before I embark on investing just to make sure my tax return doesn't become impossible or hideous.

People day-trade crypto as well. The exchanges provide summaries of the trades over a given period, with quantity and average buy/sell cost. I would assume that would be sufficient but I am sure they could provide the detailed breakdown if needed.
It would probably be prudent to download a record of the transactions or have them emailed to you in case the exchange is no longer around in a few years and HMRC come sniffing.

Type_45

Type_45 said:

ChilliBob said:

Linton said:

Type_45 said:

bowlhead99 said:

Type_45 said:

I would far rather invest in bitcoin through my ISA for tax reasons. Does anyone know of a fund where this is possible? 

Cryptocurrency isn't an allowable asset type for an ISA, and ISAs can't hold derivatives such as CFDs and options to get exposure that way. Technically, ISAs are allowed to hold exchange traded notes / exchange traded certificates where the thing traded on a stock exchange is a loan note backed by the bitcoin, with an annual management fee, just as you can buy ETFs and ETCs listed on a stock exchange and backed by gold. 

However, unfortunately the FCA decided to ban the sale of cryptocurrency derivatives and ETN-type products to UK retail customers a few months ago, which became effective this week. So the mainstream UK brokers and investment platforms which could offer these to retail investors up to last month, will no longer allow you to buy them in your ISA now. If you have them you can keep them, and dispose of them whenever you like (I still have one in my pension, and have made some sales in the last couple of months as the price went crazy), but if you don't have them they won't sell you them now.

FCA bans the sale of crypto-derivatives to retail consumers | FCA

As the FCA ban only extends to crypto derivatives such as ETCs / ETNs  rather than to funds which hold a broad portfolio of assets with diversification of risk (such as open ended funds and investment trusts), it would be possible to take 'exposure' to Bitcoin amongst a bunch of other things if you found an investment manager running an ISA-qualifying fund or IT which had BTC  or a BTC ETF as a portion of its own portfolio. 

There are a couple in the US (for example Grayscale has a Bitcoin Trust  running as an ETF, and some other mutual funds or ETFs invest into it). However, I'm not aware of any at the moment which would be accessible inside a UK ISA, because those US products won't issue the required prospectus and KID documents meeting the standards which would be required if offering to UK investors.

If you are looking to take exposure while minimising taxes - as an alternative to buying in an ISA you could use certain derivatives such as spreadbets. However, due to the FCA ban you wouldn't be able to do this as a retail investor and would need to sign up to a provider such as IG.com as a professional client.  If you don't have hundreds of thousands of liquid assets or a history of consistently placing leveraged trades of significant value they are unlikely to accept you as such, and you would lose all 'retail customer' protections.

Thank you for that. Well, looks like Bitcoin in an ISA won't be available for a while then. I will just stick to using Coinbase and make sure that I don't make more than £12,300 in any given financial year (which I'm in no danger of anyway).

You should still keep records of buys and sells for 7 years as  HMRC could ask for the information if, for example, they suspect you of avoiding tax.

Unrelated to crypto, so, if someone was a 'day trader' or moved stuff around quite a bit then the record keeping sounds rather onerous? 
I'm not intending to be that person but keen to know what sort of record keeping I need to sort out before I embark on investing just to make sure my tax return doesn't become impossible or hideous.

On a tangent, there's lots of info on different assets, funds, charges etc but I haven't seen much in terms of the actual act of investing - e.g the actuslly tasks of buying/selling/record keeping/tax/monitoring and reporting. Not sure whether this is because when you start this is all just obvious or something!

On the bitcoin side of things, it's got so popular even my Mum talked to me about it this morning and suggested I chuck a few hundred quid into it lol. Whilst im tempted I think my time would be better spent

Can you not do your trading in an ISA, and therefore it's not taxable? 

I don't know as my ISA is simply a savings account with VLS in it.

What I meant to say is that people can trade stocks within an ISA tax free. This eliminates the need to worry about keeping notes of your trades and paying taxes.

Whereas I personally don't trade in my ISA. I just put money in it and watch it (hopefully) grow. 

ChilliBob

I will be using my ISA but more besides, anyhow, I think I have hijacked this thread enough as politely pointed out to me subtly a page back

Related to bitcoin, and back on track, my mum was then banging in about Gordon Ramsey and his successes, which was another thing to put me off lol

TheAble

Type_45 said:

Type_45 said:

ChilliBob said:

Linton said:

Type_45 said:

bowlhead99 said:

Type_45 said:

I would far rather invest in bitcoin through my ISA for tax reasons. Does anyone know of a fund where this is possible? 

Cryptocurrency isn't an allowable asset type for an ISA, and ISAs can't hold derivatives such as CFDs and options to get exposure that way. Technically, ISAs are allowed to hold exchange traded notes / exchange traded certificates where the thing traded on a stock exchange is a loan note backed by the bitcoin, with an annual management fee, just as you can buy ETFs and ETCs listed on a stock exchange and backed by gold. 

However, unfortunately the FCA decided to ban the sale of cryptocurrency derivatives and ETN-type products to UK retail customers a few months ago, which became effective this week. So the mainstream UK brokers and investment platforms which could offer these to retail investors up to last month, will no longer allow you to buy them in your ISA now. If you have them you can keep them, and dispose of them whenever you like (I still have one in my pension, and have made some sales in the last couple of months as the price went crazy), but if you don't have them they won't sell you them now.

FCA bans the sale of crypto-derivatives to retail consumers | FCA

As the FCA ban only extends to crypto derivatives such as ETCs / ETNs  rather than to funds which hold a broad portfolio of assets with diversification of risk (such as open ended funds and investment trusts), it would be possible to take 'exposure' to Bitcoin amongst a bunch of other things if you found an investment manager running an ISA-qualifying fund or IT which had BTC  or a BTC ETF as a portion of its own portfolio. 

There are a couple in the US (for example Grayscale has a Bitcoin Trust  running as an ETF, and some other mutual funds or ETFs invest into it). However, I'm not aware of any at the moment which would be accessible inside a UK ISA, because those US products won't issue the required prospectus and KID documents meeting the standards which would be required if offering to UK investors.

If you are looking to take exposure while minimising taxes - as an alternative to buying in an ISA you could use certain derivatives such as spreadbets. However, due to the FCA ban you wouldn't be able to do this as a retail investor and would need to sign up to a provider such as IG.com as a professional client.  If you don't have hundreds of thousands of liquid assets or a history of consistently placing leveraged trades of significant value they are unlikely to accept you as such, and you would lose all 'retail customer' protections.

Thank you for that. Well, looks like Bitcoin in an ISA won't be available for a while then. I will just stick to using Coinbase and make sure that I don't make more than £12,300 in any given financial year (which I'm in no danger of anyway).

You should still keep records of buys and sells for 7 years as  HMRC could ask for the information if, for example, they suspect you of avoiding tax.

Unrelated to crypto, so, if someone was a 'day trader' or moved stuff around quite a bit then the record keeping sounds rather onerous? 
I'm not intending to be that person but keen to know what sort of record keeping I need to sort out before I embark on investing just to make sure my tax return doesn't become impossible or hideous.

On a tangent, there's lots of info on different assets, funds, charges etc but I haven't seen much in terms of the actual act of investing - e.g the actuslly tasks of buying/selling/record keeping/tax/monitoring and reporting. Not sure whether this is because when you start this is all just obvious or something!

On the bitcoin side of things, it's got so popular even my Mum talked to me about it this morning and suggested I chuck a few hundred quid into it lol. Whilst im tempted I think my time would be better spent

Can you not do your trading in an ISA, and therefore it's not taxable? 

I don't know as my ISA is simply a savings account with VLS in it.

What I meant to say is that people can trade stocks within an ISA tax free. This eliminates the need to worry about keeping notes of your trades and paying taxes.

Whereas I personally don't trade in my ISA. I just put money in it and watch it (hopefully) grow. 

You're not making a lot of sense. We're talking about bitcoin, not stocks and shares. And if you don't trade in your ISA (even if you only buy stuff) how is the money you put in your ISA going to grow?

Type_45

TheAble said:

Type_45 said:

Type_45 said:

ChilliBob said:

Linton said:

Type_45 said:

bowlhead99 said:

Type_45 said:

I would far rather invest in bitcoin through my ISA for tax reasons. Does anyone know of a fund where this is possible? 

Cryptocurrency isn't an allowable asset type for an ISA, and ISAs can't hold derivatives such as CFDs and options to get exposure that way. Technically, ISAs are allowed to hold exchange traded notes / exchange traded certificates where the thing traded on a stock exchange is a loan note backed by the bitcoin, with an annual management fee, just as you can buy ETFs and ETCs listed on a stock exchange and backed by gold. 

However, unfortunately the FCA decided to ban the sale of cryptocurrency derivatives and ETN-type products to UK retail customers a few months ago, which became effective this week. So the mainstream UK brokers and investment platforms which could offer these to retail investors up to last month, will no longer allow you to buy them in your ISA now. If you have them you can keep them, and dispose of them whenever you like (I still have one in my pension, and have made some sales in the last couple of months as the price went crazy), but if you don't have them they won't sell you them now.

FCA bans the sale of crypto-derivatives to retail consumers | FCA

As the FCA ban only extends to crypto derivatives such as ETCs / ETNs  rather than to funds which hold a broad portfolio of assets with diversification of risk (such as open ended funds and investment trusts), it would be possible to take 'exposure' to Bitcoin amongst a bunch of other things if you found an investment manager running an ISA-qualifying fund or IT which had BTC  or a BTC ETF as a portion of its own portfolio. 

There are a couple in the US (for example Grayscale has a Bitcoin Trust  running as an ETF, and some other mutual funds or ETFs invest into it). However, I'm not aware of any at the moment which would be accessible inside a UK ISA, because those US products won't issue the required prospectus and KID documents meeting the standards which would be required if offering to UK investors.

If you are looking to take exposure while minimising taxes - as an alternative to buying in an ISA you could use certain derivatives such as spreadbets. However, due to the FCA ban you wouldn't be able to do this as a retail investor and would need to sign up to a provider such as IG.com as a professional client.  If you don't have hundreds of thousands of liquid assets or a history of consistently placing leveraged trades of significant value they are unlikely to accept you as such, and you would lose all 'retail customer' protections.

Thank you for that. Well, looks like Bitcoin in an ISA won't be available for a while then. I will just stick to using Coinbase and make sure that I don't make more than £12,300 in any given financial year (which I'm in no danger of anyway).

You should still keep records of buys and sells for 7 years as  HMRC could ask for the information if, for example, they suspect you of avoiding tax.

Unrelated to crypto, so, if someone was a 'day trader' or moved stuff around quite a bit then the record keeping sounds rather onerous? 
I'm not intending to be that person but keen to know what sort of record keeping I need to sort out before I embark on investing just to make sure my tax return doesn't become impossible or hideous.

On a tangent, there's lots of info on different assets, funds, charges etc but I haven't seen much in terms of the actual act of investing - e.g the actuslly tasks of buying/selling/record keeping/tax/monitoring and reporting. Not sure whether this is because when you start this is all just obvious or something!

On the bitcoin side of things, it's got so popular even my Mum talked to me about it this morning and suggested I chuck a few hundred quid into it lol. Whilst im tempted I think my time would be better spent

Can you not do your trading in an ISA, and therefore it's not taxable? 

I don't know as my ISA is simply a savings account with VLS in it.

What I meant to say is that people can trade stocks within an ISA tax free. This eliminates the need to worry about keeping notes of your trades and paying taxes.

Whereas I personally don't trade in my ISA. I just put money in it and watch it (hopefully) grow. 

You're not making a lot of sense. We're talking about bitcoin, not stocks and shares. And if you don't trade in your ISA (even if you only buy stuff) how is the money you put in your ISA going to grow?

I buy VLS and then leave it alone/add money to it.

That's not what I consider to be "trading". It's simply investing in VLS.

Retireby40

All of a sudden from every crypto being up every day basically and increasing it looks now like its going the other way. This may be the start of it dropping significantly. So all of a sudden this weekend everyone who bought decided to start selling and nobody else is buying?

Malthusian

ChilliBob said:

Related to bitcoin, and back on track, my mum was then banging in about Gordon Ramsey and his successes, which was another thing to put me off lol

Your mum may have been scammed. There is a two-bit scam which has been going around for years (promoted by the mainstream press via their ad networks) which claims that some random celebrity (Gordon Ramsey, Bear Grylls and Martin Lewis have all featured) has made huge amounts of money in some Bitcoin investment and went on a TV show (e.g. This Morning) to promote it. Naturally it's all rubbish and doesn't even have anything to do with Bitcoin.

Does she have Lasting Powers of Attorney in place?

ChilliBob

Na she's not been scammed, just some junk adverts and articles which come in Gmail etc really. She in no way intends to invest herself!

Thanks for your concern, lpa is actually something they're both looking into now/soonish 

TheAble

Retireby40 said:

All of a sudden from every crypto being up every day basically and increasing it looks now like its going the other way. This may be the start of it dropping significantly. So all of a sudden this weekend everyone who bought decided to start selling and nobody else is buying?

The people they are selling to are buying (by definition).
It may be the start of it dropping significantly, or it may not be. Who knows?