Limited Title gurantee and no Land registery

garichd

We are in the process of buying a house and in the last stages, Our solicitor has send us the contract to sign and its limited title guarantee. Also , Out solicitor has informed us that the house is not registered with land registry and he will be applying on completion. I wonder what are the implications of this.
"This is probate sale and being sold for the first time"

AdrianC

Properties didn't have to be registered until relatively recently - and only then on any major transaction. So, yes, there's houses that haven't been sold for a few decades that aren't registered yet. But they need to be on a change of ownership.

And, yes, those properties are often probate sales, precisely because of the age of people who have lived in the same house for several decades... Sometimes, their paperwork is not as scrupulous as would be ideal, so the original deeds may not have been located. That's why it's being sold as "limited title guarantee" - the paperwork's gone AWOL. But, in a case like this, you can be pretty much certain it's all above board, and it's simply a case of missing paperwork.

greatcrested

If the property is not registered, the seller (and your solicitor) are relying on paper deeds to prove ownership. This is how it always used to be done pre-electronic records, and still is for proprties that have not changed hands in the last 30 odd years.

Typically the seller shows the paper Deeds from when he bought the house. And to prove that that purchase was from the previous genuine owner he'll also produce the deeds from the previous owner, and so on. Sometimes multiple deeds covering tens of sales over decades, each strenghtening your seller's claim to own the house which you wish to buy.

If some of these paper deeds are missing or don't go back very far, there is an element of doubt about his ownership and hence his right to sell to you.

With Probate sales it is particularly common for the executers to not have any/all Deeds.

The solution is for the seller to buy you an Indemnity Insurance, so that if in the future some previous owner pops up claiming the house is his, your insurance will

a) cover any legal costs to contest this and

b) compensate you if you lose the property

It very rarely happens though, and the fact that your solicitor is simply informing you, rather than advising you not to buy or to demand insurance, suggests he is, say, 95% satisfied by the deeds he's reviewed.

But I would ask for an indemnity Insurance.

davidmcn

I would also ask your solicitor to actually provide you with some advice, given that's what you're paying them for...

garichd

greatcrested said:

If the property is not registered, the seller (and your solicitor) are relying on paper deeds to prove ownership. This is how it always used to be done pre-electronic records, and still is for proprties that have not changed hands in the last 30 odd years.

Typically the seller shows the paper Deeds from when he bought the house. And to prove that that purchase was from the previous genuine owner he'll also produce the deeds from the previous owner, and so on. Sometimes multiple deeds covering tens of sales over decades, each strenghtening your seller's claim to own the house which you wish to buy.

If some of these paper deeds are missing or don't go back very far, there is an element of doubt about his ownership and hence his right to sell to you.

With Probate sales it is particularly common for the executers to not have any/all Deeds.

The solution is for the seller to buy you an Indemnity Insurance, so that if in the future some previous owner pops up claiming the house is his, your insurance will

a) cover any legal costs to contest this and

b) compensate you if you lose the property

It very rarely happens though, and the fact that your solicitor is simply informing you, rather than advising you not to buy or to demand insurance, suggests he is, say, 95% satisfied by the deeds he's reviewed.

But I would ask for an indemnity Insurance.

Should I be able to see the Title deeds before signing the contract ? 

davidmcn

garichd said:

greatcrested said:

If the property is not registered, the seller (and your solicitor) are relying on paper deeds to prove ownership. This is how it always used to be done pre-electronic records, and still is for proprties that have not changed hands in the last 30 odd years.

Typically the seller shows the paper Deeds from when he bought the house. And to prove that that purchase was from the previous genuine owner he'll also produce the deeds from the previous owner, and so on. Sometimes multiple deeds covering tens of sales over decades, each strenghtening your seller's claim to own the house which you wish to buy.

If some of these paper deeds are missing or don't go back very far, there is an element of doubt about his ownership and hence his right to sell to you.

With Probate sales it is particularly common for the executers to not have any/all Deeds.

The solution is for the seller to buy you an Indemnity Insurance, so that if in the future some previous owner pops up claiming the house is his, your insurance will

a) cover any legal costs to contest this and

b) compensate you if you lose the property

It very rarely happens though, and the fact that your solicitor is simply informing you, rather than advising you not to buy or to demand insurance, suggests he is, say, 95% satisfied by the deeds he's reviewed.

But I would ask for an indemnity Insurance.

Should I be able to see the Title deeds before signing the contract ? 

Hasn't your solicitor reported to you on what the titles say?

garichd

davidmcn said:

garichd said:

greatcrested said:

If the property is not registered, the seller (and your solicitor) are relying on paper deeds to prove ownership. This is how it always used to be done pre-electronic records, and still is for proprties that have not changed hands in the last 30 odd years.

Typically the seller shows the paper Deeds from when he bought the house. And to prove that that purchase was from the previous genuine owner he'll also produce the deeds from the previous owner, and so on. Sometimes multiple deeds covering tens of sales over decades, each strenghtening your seller's claim to own the house which you wish to buy.

If some of these paper deeds are missing or don't go back very far, there is an element of doubt about his ownership and hence his right to sell to you.

With Probate sales it is particularly common for the executers to not have any/all Deeds.

The solution is for the seller to buy you an Indemnity Insurance, so that if in the future some previous owner pops up claiming the house is his, your insurance will

a) cover any legal costs to contest this and

b) compensate you if you lose the property

It very rarely happens though, and the fact that your solicitor is simply informing you, rather than advising you not to buy or to demand insurance, suggests he is, say, 95% satisfied by the deeds he's reviewed.

But I would ask for an indemnity Insurance.

Should I be able to see the Title deeds before signing the contract ? 

Hasn't your solicitor reported to you on what the titles say?

Thats all he has reported with regards to Title.

"I confirm that the title to the property is not currently registered at the Land Registry.  The property has been owned by the deceased since 1966 and we will therefore be applying to the Land Registry to register your title to the property on completion.  I confirm that the property is freehold."

AdrianC

And the vendor (the deceased's executor, presumably) has not provided any old deeds?

Not unusual.

davidmcn

garichd said:

davidmcn said:

garichd said:

greatcrested said:

If the property is not registered, the seller (and your solicitor) are relying on paper deeds to prove ownership. This is how it always used to be done pre-electronic records, and still is for proprties that have not changed hands in the last 30 odd years.

Typically the seller shows the paper Deeds from when he bought the house. And to prove that that purchase was from the previous genuine owner he'll also produce the deeds from the previous owner, and so on. Sometimes multiple deeds covering tens of sales over decades, each strenghtening your seller's claim to own the house which you wish to buy.

If some of these paper deeds are missing or don't go back very far, there is an element of doubt about his ownership and hence his right to sell to you.

With Probate sales it is particularly common for the executers to not have any/all Deeds.

The solution is for the seller to buy you an Indemnity Insurance, so that if in the future some previous owner pops up claiming the house is his, your insurance will

a) cover any legal costs to contest this and

b) compensate you if you lose the property

It very rarely happens though, and the fact that your solicitor is simply informing you, rather than advising you not to buy or to demand insurance, suggests he is, say, 95% satisfied by the deeds he's reviewed.

But I would ask for an indemnity Insurance.

Should I be able to see the Title deeds before signing the contract ? 

Hasn't your solicitor reported to you on what the titles say?

Thats all he has reported with regards to Title.

"I confirm that the title to the property is not currently registered at the Land Registry.  The property has been owned by the deceased since 1966 and we will therefore be applying to the Land Registry to register your title to the property on completion.  I confirm that the property is freehold."

That's...slightly sketchy, to say the least. Though it may be there's not much to report from whatever due diligence they've carried out. I suggest you clarify with your solicitor.

garichd

davidmcn said:

That's...slightly sketchy, to say the least. Though it may be there's not much to report from whatever due diligence they've carried out. I suggest you clarify with your solicitor.

Looking at the contract, I think title deed is available. This is extract from contract.  I am chasing my solicitor as well.

All that Freehold Property more particularly defined in a Conveyance dated xxth Month 1966 and made between (1)xxxxxx and (2) xxxx and xxxxx

Richard_Webster

In the real world for most practical purposes the "Title Guarantee" doesn't mean a lot.   Probate sales are always with Limited TitleGuarantee - that is the norm - you are not going to get anything better.   If your solicitor wasn't satisifed that the unregistered title was good  and you would be registered as proprietors of an absolute registered title he would have told you and be insisting that the sellers provide indemnity insurance.