I need your opinion

Zellah

thegentleway said:

DrEskimo said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Assuming it's a new Golf GT TD, which emits 106 gm of CO2 per kilometre, driving it 5,000 miles a year will produce 0.85 tonnes of carbon dioxide.  This means it will take a looooooooooong time for its tailpipe emissions to get anywhere near the pollution break even point for the construction of a new car, even if said new car doesn't produce any emissions at all.  

1) It's not a GT TD, but a GTD. The 2020 model emits between 137-143g/km during the WLTP test cycle.
2) it's a 2013 model, which as we know would have had widely different real world emissions relative to the test cycle (as with most vehicles, as people don't typically drive like the test cycles...)
3) Diesel doesn't magically appear in the pump. Mining, refining and transporting can add up to 20% more as a conservative estimate.

Assuming more likely real world emissions accounting for the entire process, you are looking at closer to 200g/km, which would be around 1.6 tonnes per 5,000 miles. As already highlighted, an EV produced in a low carbon energy area like the north of England would emit around 2-3 tonnes for the chassis and battery manufacturing (not including raw material).

So less than 2-years/10,000 miles. Hardly long...

Even if you take more conservative estimates of 8.8 tonnes for an average mid-size EV, which assume much higher carbon energy mixes, you are still only looking at 5-years / 25,000 miles.

That's just the carbon. A 2013 diesel will also release a lot more particulates.

Even with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) fitted?

parking_question_chap

With an 8 minute commute my suggestion is keep the car. Do not see why you need anything newer at the moment. My car is much older than yours and still going.

If you already cycle in good weather you have a back up ready in case of a breakdown.

NottinghamKnight

DrEskimo said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Assuming it's a new Golf GT TD, which emits 106 gm of CO2 per kilometre, driving it 5,000 miles a year will produce 0.85 tonnes of carbon dioxide.  This means it will take a looooooooooong time for its tailpipe emissions to get anywhere near the pollution break even point for the construction of a new car, even if said new car doesn't produce any emissions at all.  

1) It's not a GT TD, but a GTD. The 2020 model emits between 137-143g/km during the WLTP test cycle.
2) it's a 2013 model, which as we know would have had widely different real world emissions relative to the test cycle (as with most vehicles, as people don't typically drive like the test cycles...)
3) Diesel doesn't magically appear in the pump. Mining, refining and transporting can add up to 20% more as a conservative estimate.

Assuming more likely real world emissions accounting for the entire process, you are looking at closer to 200g/km, which would be around 1.6 tonnes per 5,000 miles. As already highlighted, an EV produced in a low carbon energy area like the north of England would emit around 2-3 tonnes for the chassis and battery manufacturing (not including raw material).

So less than 2-years/10,000 miles. Hardly long...

Even if you take more conservative estimates of 8.8 tonnes for an average mid-size EV, which assume much higher carbon energy mixes, you are still only looking at 5-years / 25,000 miles.

The difficulty is that you can't just ignore the raw material. That would be several tens of tonnes of carbon for steel and other metals production, as well as all of the pl for the plastics etc etc

DrEskimo

Zellah said:

thegentleway said:

DrEskimo said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Assuming it's a new Golf GT TD, which emits 106 gm of CO2 per kilometre, driving it 5,000 miles a year will produce 0.85 tonnes of carbon dioxide.  This means it will take a looooooooooong time for its tailpipe emissions to get anywhere near the pollution break even point for the construction of a new car, even if said new car doesn't produce any emissions at all.  

1) It's not a GT TD, but a GTD. The 2020 model emits between 137-143g/km during the WLTP test cycle.
2) it's a 2013 model, which as we know would have had widely different real world emissions relative to the test cycle (as with most vehicles, as people don't typically drive like the test cycles...)
3) Diesel doesn't magically appear in the pump. Mining, refining and transporting can add up to 20% more as a conservative estimate.

Assuming more likely real world emissions accounting for the entire process, you are looking at closer to 200g/km, which would be around 1.6 tonnes per 5,000 miles. As already highlighted, an EV produced in a low carbon energy area like the north of England would emit around 2-3 tonnes for the chassis and battery manufacturing (not including raw material).

So less than 2-years/10,000 miles. Hardly long...

Even if you take more conservative estimates of 8.8 tonnes for an average mid-size EV, which assume much higher carbon energy mixes, you are still only looking at 5-years / 25,000 miles.

That's just the carbon. A 2013 diesel will also release a lot more particulates.

Even with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) fitted?

Yes.

Particularly when the car goes through a regenerative cycle....

Herzlos

The other benefit for the low usage with an EV is that if you can charge it at home you never need to bother with petrol stations.
However, if you're looking at something bigger for a family, are you use the ID3 is going to be big enough?

For the low mileage and kids, I'd be inclined to sell the Golf and buy a bigger petrol estate. The fuel economy will suck but if you're barely using it then it doesn't matter.

AdrianC

DrEskimo said:

Zellah said:

thegentleway said:

That's just the carbon. A 2013 diesel will also release a lot more particulates.

Even with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) fitted?

Yes.

Particularly when the car goes through a regenerative cycle....

No. For two reasons.

1. Even if it's Euro5b, not Euro6 (required from 2014), the change didn't tighten up on particulates - so a 2013 diesel has to meet the same particulate standard as a brand new one. (Yes, albeit measured over a different cycle, NEDC not WLTP). The 2011 change from Euro5a (2009 on) to 5b was the last change to particulates for diesels, tightening the cap from 0.005g/km to 0.0045g/km and introduced a particulate count limit of 6x10^11/km. The biggest change for diesels from Euro5 to 6 was tightening NOx from 0.18g/km to 0.08g/km.

2. DPF regeneration doesn't emit the particulates - it burns them and destroys them.

DrEskimo

AdrianC said:

DrEskimo said:

Zellah said:

thegentleway said:

That's just the carbon. A 2013 diesel will also release a lot more particulates.

Even with a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) fitted?

Yes.

Particularly when the car goes through a regenerative cycle....

No. For two reasons.

1. Even if it's Euro5b, not Euro6 (required from 2014), the change didn't tighten up on particulates - so a 2013 diesel has to meet the same particulate standard as a brand new one. (Yes, albeit measured over a different cycle, NEDC not WLTP). The 2011 change from Euro5a (2009 on) to 5b was the last change to particulates for diesels, tightening the cap from 0.005g/km to 0.0045g/km and introduced a particulate count limit of 6x10^11/km. The biggest change for diesels from Euro5 to 6 was tightening NOx from 0.18g/km to 0.08g/km.

2. DPF regeneration doesn't emit the particulates - it burns them and destroys them.

1. Based on the test requirements it may not, but I have little doubt that in real world driving a 2013 diesel will emit much more NOx and PM than a 2020 one. This has been shown time and time again in independent reports:

https://theicct.org/publications/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars

On the whole, since the dieselgate scandal, the delta between testing and real world emissions has reduced over the last 7 years, particularly for cars manufactured by the VAG. Less so for Renault, Vauxhall and Mercedes where large discrepancies exist.

2. Data on emissions during an active regeneration is scarce, but reports indicate that levels of some PM can be greatly increased:

https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2020_01_New_diesels_new_problems_full_report.pdf

Ditzy_Mitzy

Herzlos said:

The other benefit for the low usage with an EV is that if you can charge it at home you never need to bother with petrol stations.
However, if you're looking at something bigger for a family, are you use the ID3 is going to be big enough?

For the low mileage and kids, I'd be inclined to sell the Golf and buy a bigger petrol estate. The fuel economy will suck but if you're barely using it then it doesn't matter.

But then going to a petrol station once a month or so isn't exactly the world's biggest inconvenience.  What is inconvenient, however is that one can't, as one can with a petrol car, park an electric car and leave it alone for several weeks in the expectation that it will be immediately driveable when needed.  Tesla, apparently, quotes a 1% of battery per day discharge rate if the car is left alone.  Source here: A Guide to Tesla Model S Long Term Parking (teslarati.com) reckons 2-3%.  That means most of the battery will be gone after a fortnight.  
One's alternatives, therefore, are to leave the car plugged in all the time or to go out to it every few days, plug in to top up the battery and then disconnect again a few hours later.  That, of course, costs; leaving petrol in a car's petrol tank costs nothing at all.  Plus there's no messing about; as long as the battery holds enough charge to start the engine, there's nothing wrong with leaving the car alone for a few weeks.  

DrEskimo

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Herzlos said:

The other benefit for the low usage with an EV is that if you can charge it at home you never need to bother with petrol stations.
However, if you're looking at something bigger for a family, are you use the ID3 is going to be big enough?

For the low mileage and kids, I'd be inclined to sell the Golf and buy a bigger petrol estate. The fuel economy will suck but if you're barely using it then it doesn't matter.

But then going to a petrol station once a month or so isn't exactly the world's biggest inconvenience.  What is inconvenient, however is that one can't, as one can with a petrol car, park an electric car and leave it alone for several weeks in the expectation that it will be immediately driveable when needed.  Tesla, apparently, quotes a 1% of battery per day discharge rate if the car is left alone.  Source here: A Guide to Tesla Model S Long Term Parking (teslarati.com) reckons 2-3%.  That means most of the battery will be gone after a fortnight.  
One's alternatives, therefore, are to leave the car plugged in all the time or to go out to it every few days, plug in to top up the battery and then disconnect again a few hours later.  That, of course, costs; leaving petrol in a car's petrol tank costs nothing at all.  Plus there's no messing about; as long as the battery holds enough charge to start the engine, there's nothing wrong with leaving the car alone for a few weeks.  

I went to Australia for 4 weeks last year and left my EV parked the entire time at home.
I left with about 47% and when I returned the battery was at 45%...same experience leaving it parked up over lockdown.

Clearly not an issue with all EVs and very much depends on the use of an app, over the air updates and things like sentry mode.

Grumpy_chap

I would definitely acquire an EV if I could. 
The big hurdles are rapidly being cleared:

• There are now cars with a long range
• Quick charging for "on the go"
• Even cars that are desirable

The challenges are still in terms of price of entry (capital cost).  Plus still a limited choice and many of the EVs have "quirky" look-at-me-super-smug-so-and-so designs which is unattractive.  

We will really have got to a good place when a car is a car first and just happens to be EV.  Tesla have got there with the 3, MG are there and the Citroen E-C4 makes it, but not much else right at the moment.  

I was in the market for a new car pre-lockdown, and really like the Mondeo, but no equivalent EV.  The nearest was the Tesla 3.  That said, with the massively reduced mileage until "normality" re-establishes, I won't be buying any car of any kind.