Bitcoin

IvanOpinion

I think I am seeing a bromance forming here

Malthusian

RichTips said:

In a very real sense, you're diminishing the foreword thinking of those who bought early and held.

Most of the small minority who successfully cashed out of Bitcoin at a significant profit freely admit that there was no "forward thinking" involved. The typical winner bought it because they were intrigued by the technology and then largely forgot about it for years (but didn't lose their wallet / hard drive / passwords), then sold out at the next pump because they weren't emotionally invested into the idea of hoddling on until they were a multi-millionaire.

FCA research has confirmed that most crypto punters do not invest with any particular strategy beyond "buy crypto, get rich".

The FCA said:
After buying crypto assets for the first time, the vast majority of respondents aimed to grow their portfolio. They rarely sold small portions of it, and most did not have any form of strategy for exiting the market or divesting the money they had “invested”.

Respondents were often planning to keep their holdings for the foreseeable future, until they had reached a substantial value. This was often a loosely defined target amount which varied between consumers, but was almost always significantly more (often degrees of magnitude) than their current value.Some imagined this would equate to millions of pounds, whereas for others this was enough to pay for their pension and retire, or to buy a new house or a sports car.

If this is forward thinking then I'm Satoshi Nakamoto.

To begrudgingly adopt your analogy, anyone who bought a "ticket" to Bitcoin prior to today has "won" your "lottery," unlike an actual lottery.

No they haven't. Not until they cash in at a profit. As with any other zero sum game including the lottery, it is mathematically impossible for everyone who bought a "ticket" prior to today to cash out at a profit.

RichTips

Malthusian said:

RichTips said:

In a very real sense, you're diminishing the foreword thinking of those who bought early and held.

Most of the small minority who successfully cashed out of Bitcoin at a significant profit freely admit that there was no "forward thinking" involved. The typical winner bought it because they were intrigued by the technology and then largely forgot about it for years (but didn't lose their wallet / hard drive / passwords), then sold out at the next pump because they weren't emotionally invested into the idea of hoddling on until they were a multi-millionaire.

FCA research has confirmed that most crypto punters do not invest with any particular strategy beyond "buy crypto, get rich".

The FCA said:
After buying crypto assets for the first time, the vast majority of respondents aimed to grow their portfolio. They rarely sold small portions of it, and most did not have any form of strategy for exiting the market or divesting the money they had “invested”.

Respondents were often planning to keep their holdings for the foreseeable future, until they had reached a substantial value. This was often a loosely defined target amount which varied between consumers, but was almost always significantly more (often degrees of magnitude) than their current value.Some imagined this would equate to millions of pounds, whereas for others this was enough to pay for their pension and retire, or to buy a new house or a sports car.

If this is forward thinking then I'm Satoshi Nakamoto.

To begrudgingly adopt your analogy, anyone who bought a "ticket" to Bitcoin prior to today has "won" your "lottery," unlike an actual lottery.

No they haven't. Not until they cash in at a profit. As with any other zero sum game including the lottery, it is mathematically impossible for everyone who bought a "ticket" prior to today to cash out at a profit.

You're still diminishing the foreword thinking of those who consciously bought and held.
Why do you resist admitting that people who saw potential gain in Bitcoin and the benefits of the network have realized a gain that you have missed? I'm sure you've made some very good calls regarding investments, the potential of Bitcoin is simply something that was beyond you. 

HansOndabush

[Deleted User] said:

HansOndabush said:

[Deleted User] said:

HansOndabush said:

OK let me try to convince you from a different angle. I bitcoin transaction uses 741 Kw hours of electricity which is nearly 500,000 times more than a visa transaction. That is neither progress nor helping to save the planet from global warming.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/

Also please provide sources to backup your statements as I do.

You don't need to convince me, because you are incorrect. I am not arguing about MINING costs, as they are significant, I agree. It's just that you don't understand distinction between networked Bitcoin Node and Bitcoin Miner.

Here, explained what Full Node is: https://bitcoin.org/en/full-node

You can download full node client, called "Bitcoin Core" here: https://bitcoin.org/en/download

You can run it on your computer today and store decentralized copy of whole bitcoin ledger. You will get no reward for that, it's not mining.

NODE is not a MINER. Node doesn't burn 741 KWh of electricity per transaction. It's the MINERS who burn that energy and they are being rewarded for doing so. Nodes don't.
I run a NODE on my home PC server. It's not mining, it's just passing verified transactions with all its peers throughout the network, and stores all ledger (meaning verified, valid blocks) on the hard drive. That's what full node do.

So I'm supposed to ignore the statistics and believe that a Bitcoin transaction only costs a few watts of power on your PC in your bedroom?

Here is another article from the BBC: Bitcoin consumes more energy than Argentina

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56012952

"In order to "mine" Bitcoin, computers - often specialised ones - are connected to the cryptocurrency network. They have the job of verifying transactions made by people who send or receive Bitcoin. This process involves solving puzzles, which, while not integral to verifying movements of the currency, provide a hurdle to ensure no-one fraudulently edits the global record of all transactions. "

- which is exactly what I said i.e. in order to support the transaction processing you have to have the miners.

Here's another report which says the energy consumption of a bitcoin transaction is 612Kwh:

https://www.institutionalassetmanager.co.uk/2021/01/20/294669/global-bitcoin-transactions-cost-usd25m-day-electricity-process

"New data released by Trading Platforms indicates that it costs USD25.2 million per day in electricity to process bitcoin transactions. The consumption cost is based on bitcoin’s 30-day average transaction of 328,418 as of 17 January, 2021, and the energy footprint per 1 BTC transaction confirmation of 612 kWh equivalent to USD76.74."

- they are talking about transactions here; not mining!

 

Let me try again, because you don't understand fundamental technical aspect, thanks to inaccurate journalists wording.

Mining and full node serve two different purposes. I tried to explain above in previous posts. Bitcoin doesn't exist without mining and doesn't exist without nodes. I know bitcoin in total burns as much electricity as Argentina of whatever, but my home computer isn't part of that because IT'S NOT MINING.

This problem arises because of the wording, journalists use unfortunate "process bitcoin transactions" to describe the mining. That's nodes job. Miners are only "mining" (which is finding solution to mathematical equation by bruteforce computation) blocks (with millions of watts of electricity burned in the process), nodes handle validating, processing and propagating it. I am not bitcoin developer, but that's how I understand it.

So I'm supposed to ignore the statistics and believe that a Bitcoin transaction only costs a few watts of power on your PC in your bedroom?

Transaction cost (in average) as much as you said there with your example, I don't argue. I try to explain to you, that to store full copy of blockchain ledger and strengthen decentralization you don't need to be a miner. To have a Bitcoin wallet on your phone, send and receive transactions you don't need to be a miner either. Do you understand?

https://zipmex.com/learn/how-long-does-it-take-to-transfer-bitcoin/

"Bitcoin transactions take an average of 10 minutes to be completed."

"Bitcoin transactions have to be verified by a process called mining where miners are required to solve complex puzzles."

I am sorry patient_investor but practically all the information and sources I find do not agree with what you are saying.  A transaction that takes 10 minutes to verify from computers networked around the world cannot take negligible energy as you suggest whatever nuance you want to put on the technicalities.

A transaction time of 10 minutes is of no use to anyone queuing in Tesco to pay for their groceries. It seems it is only useful for moving large amounts of money for nefarious activities or avoiding tax as it makes it difficult, but not impossible (as has been proved), for the authorities to trace you.

The complete waste of energy by Bitcoin should be brought to the attention of governments in as many countries as possible so Bitcoin can be made illegal and the obscene waste of energy reduced. What other purpose does bitcoin serve than a medium of exchange for criminals or a feeding frenzy for speculators who buy in with the hope that a bigger fool will pay more than they did?

Grenage

I think many of the disagreements over bitcoin are about it being a currency.  If bitcoin was intended to be a currency then it has failed; what is may well be in the long term is a value store, much like gold.

I say this as someone without bitcoin (well I've a very expensive hard drive in a landfill somewhere).  I can see bitcoin eventually stabilizing to a reliable value store, but I can equally see it becoming worthless.  Nobody knows, but some people have obviously speculated well thus far.

People aren't mental for buying into it, as long as it's not their primary allocation.

HansOndabush

How can it be a store of value when there's nothing there? Bitcoin is just a number, nothing more. You can't use it in industry or make nice jewelry with it, or even bribe a guard like you can with gold and silver.

Grenage

HansOndabush said:

How can it be a store of value when there's nothing there? Bitcoin is just a number, nothing more. You can't use it in industry or make nice jewelry with it, or even bribe a guard like you can with gold and silver.

It's just a number yes, but it can have whatever value people assign it.  A painting is worth whatever someone is willing to pay, just like a unique hash.

Value can be assigned to anything as long as two parties agree.

You could probably bribe a guard with bitcoin at this point.

HansOndabush

Grenage said:

HansOndabush said:

How can it be a store of value when there's nothing there? Bitcoin is just a number, nothing more. You can't use it in industry or make nice jewelry with it, or even bribe a guard like you can with gold and silver.

You could probably bribe a guard with bitcoin at this point.

No, my point was when the goo hits the fan, it's gold in your pocket that can save you. You'll be unlikely to bribe a guard to save yourself if you have to explain you'll need a computer, your digital wallet, and at least 10 mins transaction time.

[Deleted User]

HansOndabush said:

Grenage said:

HansOndabush said:

How can it be a store of value when there's nothing there? Bitcoin is just a number, nothing more. You can't use it in industry or make nice jewelry with it, or even bribe a guard like you can with gold and silver.

You could probably bribe a guard with bitcoin at this point.

No, my point was when the goo hits the fan, it's gold in your pocket that can save you. You'll be unlikely to bribe a guard to save yourself if you have to explain you'll need a computer, your digital wallet, and at least 10 mins transaction time.

I am sorry but you are wrong again. Go and have a read on Lightning Network, layer 2 blockchain solution built on top of Bitcoin. I already said about it in this topic, you can go back few pages.

With Lightning, Bitcoin is a viable payment method with instant settlement once again, no 10 minutes wait time or anything. And payment fees are about 0.00000001 BTC per transaction. Much lower than Visa, eh?

HansOndabush

How are you going to access 'Lightning Network' when you're about to be put on a train or shot?