Bitcoin

danm

[Deleted User] said:

George_Michael said:

patient_investor said:

With Lightning, Bitcoin is a viable payment method with instant settlement once again, no 10 minutes wait time or anything. And payment fees are about 0.00000001 BTC per transaction. Much lower than Visa, eh? 

No, for the majority of people in the UK, it's not much lower than Visa simply because for consumer purchases, it's illegal for there to be any added fee when making a payment on Visa or any other non business credit or debit card.

Pardon me, Bitcoin network fee is added for every transaction on main blockchain (up to multiple pounds) and multiple satoshis (satoshi is 0.00000001 BTC) in Lightning and Bitcoin doesn't care. Bitcoin transactions aren't illegal, Bitcoin is not illegal, some local governments like Miami are accepting Bitcoin already as means of payment of taxes. I sent Bitcoin as payment for merchandise and reported it as my business expense, I received Bitcoin as payment (on sole trader invoice) and reported it to my accountant and to HMRC. It works. Sorry to break your illusion.

how did you report Bitcoin to HMRC? I thought all returns were in £ ?

george4064

Is there such thing as a Bitcoin ETF/ETC?

Would much prefer to hold bitcoin through a vehicle such as an ETF/ETC rather than direct investment.

I've searched for one but cant find anything, looking to potentially add bitcoin to my diversified portfolio. Max 3% allocation.

HansOndabush

[Deleted User] said:

HansOndabush said:

You are wrong again. HSBC don't accept it, in fact they have banned it. The FCA has warned against it. The large US banks have now stopped their cards being used for crypto purchases.

Where was I wrong before?

By maintaining that Bitcoin works as a currency (quote from you 'It works'). It has clearly failed as a currency.

HSBC bans crypto currency proceeds from being transferred, bans use of cards for crypto:

https://currency.com/hsbc-blocks-cryptocurrency-transfers

UK and US banks prohibit purchasing of crypto using cards:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/naeemaslam/2018/02/05/banks-banning-cryptocurrency-purchase-on-credit-cards-why/

"In the U.K., the first announcement came from the Lloyds banking group. The ban expands to MBNA, Halifax, Bank of Scotland customers."

Hardly seems like it works very well like you maintain.

underground99

george4064 said:

Is there such thing as a Bitcoin ETF/ETC?

Would much prefer to hold bitcoin through a vehicle such as an ETF/ETC rather than direct investment.

I've searched for one but cant find anything, looking to potentially add bitcoin to my diversified portfolio. Max 3% allocation.

examples on the Stockholm exchange trading in SEK or EUR
https://coinshares.com/etps/xbt-provider/bitcoin-tracker-one
or on Xetra in Germany in EUR
https://www.btc-etc.com/products/btcetc.html
They have slightly different fee structures, several hundred million under management even before the recent price rises.

Due to the FCA ban on crypto derivatives being sold to retail customers last month   (and ETNs referencing bitcoin will count as a crypto derivative), you won't be able to buy either of them as a UK retail customer - if you already have it you can keep it and still sell as and when, as the restriction is only on buying. If you convince your provider that you qualify as a professional customer who doesn't want retail protections on anything you hold in your account, you can probably buy it, but that would be a leap of faith if you had significant other assets.

[Deleted User]

HansOndabush said:

[Deleted User] said:

HansOndabush said:

You are wrong again. HSBC don't accept it, in fact they have banned it. The FCA has warned against it. The large US banks have now stopped their cards being used for crypto purchases.

Where was I wrong before?

By maintaining that Bitcoin works as a currency (quote from you 'It works'). It has clearly failed as a currency.

If failed in your eyes because you still didn't read what Lightning is

Anyway, most of users are involved due to it being better store of value than anything else

HSBC bans crypto currency proceeds from being transferred, bans use of cards for crypto:

https://currency.com/hsbc-blocks-cryptocurrency-transfers

Not using HSBC, not affected

UK and US banks prohibit purchasing of crypto using cards:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/naeemaslam/2018/02/05/banks-banning-cryptocurrency-purchase-on-credit-cards-why/

"In the U.K., the first announcement came from the Lloyds banking group. The ban expands to MBNA, Halifax, Bank of Scotland customers."

This is three years old news, I personally use some of these banks with Bitcoin related transactions and I am not banned in any way, never were

Hardly seems like it works very well like you maintain.

Millions of users beg to differ.

uk1

Hi all, not a bitcoin buyer and have no regrets but I do have a question for those that understand it.

My understanding is that unlike gold there is a finite amount of bitcoin and once it's sold there will be no new bitcoin available. That might imply rarity will push prices up. But I can only see that likely if people continue to buy it for some purpose.  If the purpose is to hoard it to resell then for it to increase in value potential buyers would need to either wish to use it to buy something or because they believe others will buy them for more in the future.  This implies that without it being used for a purpose other than the hope of selling it on to others, it starts to to look like a structure that's bound to crumble and plunge in values because the only punters will be those willing to pay less than the cdurrent quoted value.  So this is where I'm struggling.

My understanding of how gold works is that it is both rare but also is used for example in industry and jewelery.  So people will buy it both to hold and invest in and/or because it has a utility that people WILL buy it for.  Gold also has an extrmeley long track record.  But there is still more gold to be mined and the combination of rarity and intrinsic utility value is what supports it's long term reliability as an investment.  There will always be buyers that wish to invest because it has utility as well as rarity.  My understanding of bitcoin is that as a generalisation most people that have used it to purchase something subsequenely regret it because of the post purchase increase in value for example the often cited $200m pizza.  So there is a reluctance amongst owners to use it as a currency through fear of future loss in a rising market.  So when there are no more bitcoin and presuming only limited numbers of people will start to use it as a currency then who exactly are the people that will be purchasing it and with what purpose in mind?  Doesn't it imply a rapid destruction of confidence?  To my limited reasonaing it seems obvious you will need more people wanting to buy it than those who are spending or selling it otherwise you have an increasingly very large number people needing to sell to decreasing numbers of buyers before they fear they will lose too much if they hold on and this to me implies an out of control crashing market.

Hope the question isn't to convoluted but the future of bitcoin once fresh bitcoin is no longer available, seems difficult to see why it should be a good rising investment.

LHW99

underground99 said:

george4064 said:

Is there such thing as a Bitcoin ETF/ETC?

Would much prefer to hold bitcoin through a vehicle such as an ETF/ETC rather than direct investment.

I've searched for one but cant find anything, looking to potentially add bitcoin to my diversified portfolio. Max 3% allocation.

examples on the Stockholm exchange trading in SEK or EUR
https://coinshares.com/etps/xbt-provider/bitcoin-tracker-one
or on Xetra in Germany in EUR
https://www.btc-etc.com/products/btcetc.html
They have slightly different fee structures, several hundred million under management even before the recent price rises.

Due to the FCA ban on crypto derivatives being sold to retail customers last month   (and ETNs referencing bitcoin will count as a crypto derivative), you won't be able to buy either of them as a UK retail customer - if you already have it you can keep it and still sell as and when, as the restriction is only on buying. If you convince your provider that you qualify as a professional customer who doesn't want retail protections on anything you hold in your account, you can probably buy it, but that would be a leap of faith if you had significant other assets.

BCHS holds companies related to Blockchain technology, and does include some cos. that include crypto banking and bitcoin mining among a range of other things. Available in the UK - I hold a small amount (<2%) just to see what happens - DYOR

Thrugelmir

[Deleted User] said:

HansOndabush said:

[Deleted User] said:

HansOndabush said:

You are wrong again. HSBC don't accept it, in fact they have banned it. The FCA has warned against it. The large US banks have now stopped their cards being used for crypto purchases.

Where was I wrong before?

By maintaining that Bitcoin works as a currency (quote from you 'It works'). It has clearly failed as a currency.

If failed in your eyes because you still didn't read what Lightning is

Anyway, most of users are involved due to it being better store of value than anything else

HSBC bans crypto currency proceeds from being transferred, bans use of cards for crypto:

https://currency.com/hsbc-blocks-cryptocurrency-transfers

Not using HSBC, not affected

UK and US banks prohibit purchasing of crypto using cards:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/naeemaslam/2018/02/05/banks-banning-cryptocurrency-purchase-on-credit-cards-why/

"In the U.K., the first announcement came from the Lloyds banking group. The ban expands to MBNA, Halifax, Bank of Scotland customers."

This is three years old news, I personally use some of these banks with Bitcoin related transactions and I am not banned in any way, never were

Hardly seems like it works very well like you maintain.

Millions of users beg to differ.

Millions of people thought trading GameStop was a good idea. For a while at least until the music stopped. Everybody that trades something does so with the aim of making a profit. Which unfortunately is often at somebody elses expense and ultimately loss. . 

Buy a huge slug. Pump it up. Dump it. Rinse and repeat. Always plenty of suckers to draw in. Just like the ball under the 3 cup trick. 

csgohan4

Bitcoin is an investment, whether it is your risk appetite is another thing.  There is no wrong investment for one person, whether it is a good idea or outrageous is personal preference. I wont invest in bitcoin as it is above my risk appetite and I want to sleep at night

HansOndabush

I would beg to differ that bitcoin is an investment; rather a speculation. 

From the web:

"High-risk speculation is typically akin to gambling, whereas lower-risk investing uses a basis of fundamentals and analysis"

Bitcoin doesn't really have anything much on the 'fundamentals and analysis' front to work out what could be a fair value. Therefore I see it purely in the realms of speculation.