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Section 75 advice needed for a fitted kitchen with many defects and issues
richardc1983
Posts: 2,157 Forumite
Hello everyone, I am really sorry for the long post below but I wanted to be clear and factual.
We approached an independent company (https://www.jctinteriors.co.uk/) for a new kitchen fitted and wanted a company that do the full work from design to supply and fit. They designed us a kitchen, supplied the units and they arranged one of their fitters who is self-employed to do the work. We paid 6k of the 11k total on a credit card, the rest went to the fitter for him to pay his labourers such as tiler/electrician etc. JCT provided a fully inclusive service from design to fitting (as per their website below). We went to them, asked for a new kitchen, they came out designed one, we agreed the design, chose the kitchen, they then attended site again with two fitters who gave a price to the designer and she chose the best price which she thought was reasonable. They then provided a quote for the kitchen to include the installation cost. They asked us to pay the fitter for the fitting direct as he would need to pay his materials and also his labourers such as plumber and electrician.
We were advised a 3-week fit but despite starting in June 2019 it was completed in September 2019 albeit with issues still remaining but by that point, we just wanted the fitter offsite. We tried to resolve with the company but wasn't getting anywhere fast. Long and short of it is in December we noticed worktops dropping and tiles coming loose, we had independent joiners out who have looked at the kitchen and found lots of issues such as worktops not fitted properly, plug sockets not straight. Holes in cupboards where they were fitted wrong, worktops cut too short, a very long extensive list of defects, some of which have been uncovered by other joiners who have attended such as end panels missing or worktops not sealed or batoned properly, it's been like opening a can of worms.
In April this year we approached them again asking them to put the issues right, they blame the fitter and say we have no apparent come back to JCT as the fitter is self-employed, even though they supplied him and he represented JCT... we didn't go out and buy a kitchen from B&Q like some do and find a joiner to fit it for you. We didn't want any of that additional stress.
The new Managing Director of JCT came out in May time and agreed with the state of the tiling and agreed to go away and speak to the fitter. They agreed that the tiling would need to come off and be done again properly, the issue with the worktops would need a section of work replacing and enough space created properly for the washing machine which does not fit. We reluctantly agreed that for them to put all these issues right that we would cover the first day's labour and the original fitter would provide the new worktop and wall tiles along with the rest of the labour. The Managing Director appeared to suggest he was doing us a favour coming out to see the kitchen and try to put it right even though we had threatened to go to our credit card company, he turned around and told us that it is the fitter at fault and that we have no come back on JCT, even though they quoted us for the installation and that is clear on the invoice and from the promotion of their kitchen services on their website. He said that we should take the fitter to court and that is how we would pursue it.
They arranged a date for the original fitter to attend to come back and rectify and told us to choose new wall tiles etc. We booked just after this for our new kitchen floor to be laid and a decorator to come after the kitchen work had been done. However, 2 days before the date of JCT coming we were told by the fitter that he didn't have us booked in and that he could not say when he could come and it would be long after Christmas, despite having this been arranged by the managing director and him. This obvious really angered us and we had to cancel the other workmen who were coming which we felt really bad as it was then too late for them to arrange other works.
We formally at this point rejected the full kitchen as well as having anything to do with the original fitter again. The other joiners who attended said they were not comfortable with the number of issues and wanted to strip back the kitchen far enough that they could warranty their own work, and also the joiner we had quote could not get the same style of worktop from his supplier which would mean all the worktops would need replacing to match. This obviously means the costs would be higher than if JCT were to put right the issues themselves using their own labour and supply chain. We also left negative reviews on their social media and google pages of which prompted us getting a threat of them suing us for slander even though we have it all in black and white and with pictures to back it up. At this point, they agreed if we took them down they would get another fitter out to come and look at what was needed.
A different fitter attended from JCT, found all the issues plus some more and has submitted a labour cost back (£1500) to the Managing Director to rectify. This fitter also told us that this isn't the first one he has been asked to go out and look at that another fitter has messed up at JCT. The MD has then gone back to the original fitter and told him that this is the labour cost at which point the original fitter has said he will not cover the labour cost and will only cover the materials (worktop/tiles). So we are now back to square one, the different fitter pencilled us in for 2 weeks time assuming that the original fitter would be picking up the bill and we have arranged the other tradespersons to attend the following week to complete other works for us. We have opened a claim with the credit card company who think this is a Section 75 but I wanted to know where we stand. JCT does not seem bothered at all by us saying we will go to the credit card company and even with us raising the consumer credit act they still reiterate that we have no come back on them.
Cost from other independent joiners is looking at approx 4-5k to put right given the amount of work needed and new worktops as wall cupboards need to come off to fit missing end panels etc.
Please help us understand where we stand. Invoice and screenshots from their website below as to what we thought we was getting...
We approached an independent company (https://www.jctinteriors.co.uk/) for a new kitchen fitted and wanted a company that do the full work from design to supply and fit. They designed us a kitchen, supplied the units and they arranged one of their fitters who is self-employed to do the work. We paid 6k of the 11k total on a credit card, the rest went to the fitter for him to pay his labourers such as tiler/electrician etc. JCT provided a fully inclusive service from design to fitting (as per their website below). We went to them, asked for a new kitchen, they came out designed one, we agreed the design, chose the kitchen, they then attended site again with two fitters who gave a price to the designer and she chose the best price which she thought was reasonable. They then provided a quote for the kitchen to include the installation cost. They asked us to pay the fitter for the fitting direct as he would need to pay his materials and also his labourers such as plumber and electrician.
We were advised a 3-week fit but despite starting in June 2019 it was completed in September 2019 albeit with issues still remaining but by that point, we just wanted the fitter offsite. We tried to resolve with the company but wasn't getting anywhere fast. Long and short of it is in December we noticed worktops dropping and tiles coming loose, we had independent joiners out who have looked at the kitchen and found lots of issues such as worktops not fitted properly, plug sockets not straight. Holes in cupboards where they were fitted wrong, worktops cut too short, a very long extensive list of defects, some of which have been uncovered by other joiners who have attended such as end panels missing or worktops not sealed or batoned properly, it's been like opening a can of worms.
In April this year we approached them again asking them to put the issues right, they blame the fitter and say we have no apparent come back to JCT as the fitter is self-employed, even though they supplied him and he represented JCT... we didn't go out and buy a kitchen from B&Q like some do and find a joiner to fit it for you. We didn't want any of that additional stress.
The new Managing Director of JCT came out in May time and agreed with the state of the tiling and agreed to go away and speak to the fitter. They agreed that the tiling would need to come off and be done again properly, the issue with the worktops would need a section of work replacing and enough space created properly for the washing machine which does not fit. We reluctantly agreed that for them to put all these issues right that we would cover the first day's labour and the original fitter would provide the new worktop and wall tiles along with the rest of the labour. The Managing Director appeared to suggest he was doing us a favour coming out to see the kitchen and try to put it right even though we had threatened to go to our credit card company, he turned around and told us that it is the fitter at fault and that we have no come back on JCT, even though they quoted us for the installation and that is clear on the invoice and from the promotion of their kitchen services on their website. He said that we should take the fitter to court and that is how we would pursue it.
They arranged a date for the original fitter to attend to come back and rectify and told us to choose new wall tiles etc. We booked just after this for our new kitchen floor to be laid and a decorator to come after the kitchen work had been done. However, 2 days before the date of JCT coming we were told by the fitter that he didn't have us booked in and that he could not say when he could come and it would be long after Christmas, despite having this been arranged by the managing director and him. This obvious really angered us and we had to cancel the other workmen who were coming which we felt really bad as it was then too late for them to arrange other works.
We formally at this point rejected the full kitchen as well as having anything to do with the original fitter again. The other joiners who attended said they were not comfortable with the number of issues and wanted to strip back the kitchen far enough that they could warranty their own work, and also the joiner we had quote could not get the same style of worktop from his supplier which would mean all the worktops would need replacing to match. This obviously means the costs would be higher than if JCT were to put right the issues themselves using their own labour and supply chain. We also left negative reviews on their social media and google pages of which prompted us getting a threat of them suing us for slander even though we have it all in black and white and with pictures to back it up. At this point, they agreed if we took them down they would get another fitter out to come and look at what was needed.
A different fitter attended from JCT, found all the issues plus some more and has submitted a labour cost back (£1500) to the Managing Director to rectify. This fitter also told us that this isn't the first one he has been asked to go out and look at that another fitter has messed up at JCT. The MD has then gone back to the original fitter and told him that this is the labour cost at which point the original fitter has said he will not cover the labour cost and will only cover the materials (worktop/tiles). So we are now back to square one, the different fitter pencilled us in for 2 weeks time assuming that the original fitter would be picking up the bill and we have arranged the other tradespersons to attend the following week to complete other works for us. We have opened a claim with the credit card company who think this is a Section 75 but I wanted to know where we stand. JCT does not seem bothered at all by us saying we will go to the credit card company and even with us raising the consumer credit act they still reiterate that we have no come back on them.
Cost from other independent joiners is looking at approx 4-5k to put right given the amount of work needed and new worktops as wall cupboards need to come off to fit missing end panels etc.
Please help us understand where we stand. Invoice and screenshots from their website below as to what we thought we was getting...
If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->
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Comments
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Probably worth understanding that claiming under section 75 essentially entails you pursuing the credit card company and holding them liable instead of (or at least 'as well as') the kitchen company, so of course it's no sort of threat to the latter if you're choosing to chase someone else rather than them!richardc1983 said:we had threatened to go to our credit card company
[...]
We have opened a claim with the credit card company who think this is a Section 75 but I wanted to know where we stand. JCT does not seem bothered at all by us saying we will go to the credit card company and even with us raising the consumer credit act they still reiterate that we have no come back on them.
[...]
Please help us understand where we stand.
Anyway, now you've started the s75 claim, you'll just need to follow the card company's process, providing them with all the documentation that they ask for. Obviously there are no guarantees that the card company will find in your favour, and it's unlikely to be decided in a hurry, but hope it all works out....0 -
So does a s75 have no come back on JCT at all?eskbanker said:
Probably worth understanding that claiming under section 75 essentially entails you pursuing the credit card company and holding them liable instead of (or at least 'as well as') the kitchen company, so of course it's no sort of threat to the latter if you're choosing to chase someone else rather than them!richardc1983 said:we had threatened to go to our credit card company
[...]
We have opened a claim with the credit card company who think this is a Section 75 but I wanted to know where we stand. JCT does not seem bothered at all by us saying we will go to the credit card company and even with us raising the consumer credit act they still reiterate that we have no come back on them.
[...]
Please help us understand where we stand.
Anyway, now you've started the s75 claim, you'll just need to follow the card company's process, providing them with all the documentation that they ask for. Obviously there are no guarantees that the card company will find in your favour, and it's unlikely to be decided in a hurry, but hope it all works out....If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
Possibly but not automatically as a matter of course (unlike chargeback). The whole point of s75 is that it holds a creditor equally as liable as the supplier (for breach of contract or misrepresentation on qualifying purchases) and so you're claiming against the card company - they ultimately have the right to seek recovery of costs from merchants but typically don't do so, as I understand it.richardc1983 said:So does a s75 have no come back on JCT at all?0 -
Unless the card co contact JCT and try to reach a agreement to get them to sort the issues (highly unlikely given your 1st post) then NO.richardc1983 said:
So does a s75 have no come back on JCT at all?
As a rule S75 are payed from the bank and have no impact on the company. It is not cost effective to chase them through the courts.Life in the slow lane0 -
I guess similar to an insurance claim in that the insurance company will pay out.born_again said:
Unless the card co contact JCT and try to reach a agreement to get them to sort the issues (highly unlikely given your 1st post) then NO.richardc1983 said:
So does a s75 have no come back on JCT at all?
As a rule S75 are payed from the bank and have no impact on the company. It is not cost effective to chase them through the courts.If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
Evening,
Just an update, we've provided a report with quote to the credit card company section 75 team. Cost to rectify approx £6300, and cost to fully replace and start a new would be about £11000. They credit company suggested we get a cost to start again in case that is the preferred route for us and would mean it would have a full warranty etc. I spoke to someone last week at the section 75 team and they said sometimes depending on the amount they may take the retailer to court to claim costs back.
I also managed to search through my bank statements and found all the cash transfers that we made to the fitter that are clearly identifiable, I was unsure if I had paid physical cash which would be difficult to trace but it's all accounted for. I wonder if the fitter is paying tax on this cash?!
Today I received an email saying if you receive unsatisfactory goods or services costing over £100, but not over £30,000 for a single item and you paid for them directly using credit provided under this agreement, you may have the right to make a claim against the supplier, card provider, or both. They say they have referred our claim to their Legal Department for advice. This is naturally worrying but I'm reassured that this is all part of the process.
If you know what they may be happening in the background please let me know.
Thank youIf you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
That's effectively a precis of Section 75 - if you haven't already done so, it would probably be worth familiarising yourself with its contents. There's an overview at https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/section75-protect-your-purchases/richardc1983 said:Today I received an email saying if you receive unsatisfactory goods or services costing over £100, but not over £30,000 for a single item and you paid for them directly using credit provided under this agreement, you may have the right to make a claim against the supplier, card provider, or both.0 -
Yes I've researched it before and believe that we have a solid case and claim. Just confused as to why they are taking legal advice.
If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->0 -
They are checking '' if we are taken to court jointly with the kitchen fitter - will we win or lose''?
If the legal team agree that you have a strong case, things will crawl along and sooner or later they will give you the money for a new kitchen.0 -
Not even fussed for a new kitchen just want this one putting right.jonesMUFCforever said:They are checking '' if we are taken to court jointly with the kitchen fitter - will we win or lose''?
If the legal team agree that you have a strong case, things will crawl along and sooner or later they will give you the money for a new kitchen.If you found my post helpful, please remember to press the THANKS button! --->1
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