My boss doesn't have me on the books. Can I claim furlough?

bradders1983

ekhoos said:

macman said:

ekhoos said:

macman said:

Depressing to hear that 'the accountant' is part of a conspiracy to defraud HMRC, as well as the owners.
OP, do you really feel that you'e entitled to benefit from state support by furlough, even though you have paid no tax or NI on your earnings?

Well I hope you'd understand that I have worked many jobs in the past where I have paid NI & tax and that I have made every effort to be put on the books in this job. I will also be working until I am 80.

Putting aside the dubious morality of this approach, how could you possibly think that any employer can claim furlough for an employee who, as far as HMRC are concerned, does not exist? If this were possible, then there would be fraudulent claims on a huge scale.

macman said:

ekhoos said:

macman said:

Depressing to hear that 'the accountant' is part of a conspiracy to defraud HMRC, as well as the owners.
OP, do you really feel that you'e entitled to benefit from state support by furlough, even though you have paid no tax or NI on your earnings?

Well I hope you'd understand that I have worked many jobs in the past where I have paid NI & tax and that I have made every effort to be put on the books in this job. I will also be working until I am 80.

Putting aside the dubious morality of this approach, how could you possibly think that any employer can claim furlough for an employee who, as far as HMRC are concerned, does not exist? If this were possible, then there would be fraudulent claims on a huge scale.

How often do employers get away with not making clear to HMRC who they have working for them? 

Probably quite often, but then again global pandemics dont come along too often, sadly the employees get the brunt of it in your case.

gary83

employees had to have RTI submitted to HMRC by 30th October (before the extended/new furlough scheme was announced) to ensure it was a legitimate job and employers couldn’t claim furlough for jobs that don’t exist (ie wives, girlfriends, family, mates etc) the problem with getting paid cash in hand is not just Covid related you also don’t get credits for National insurance so your state pension isn’t building up, you also will not be entitled to new style JSA

macman

You go 'on the books' as soon as you are employed: your first salary payment should deduct tax and NI. Since most of the other staff are on the books either, it must be fairly obvious that this isn't due to some kind of administrative delay in the book-keeping: it's a systematic fraud. Your boss will not be declaring his true turnover (much of which will be cash receipts) and is using some of that undeclared income to pay you in cash. 
It's not easy to track, because there is nothing to track. No paperwork: cash goes in the till, cash comes out of the till. As long as the income and expenditure accounts are reasonably in line, which will be a standard formula in a restaurant business, then there is no reason for HMRC to investigate, unless someone tips them off.
No one knows the true scale of it, for the same reason.

MattMattMattUK

ekhoos said:

How often do employers get away with not making clear to HMRC who they have working for them? How is it not easy to track? 

It depends on the scale, small businesses, quiet a lot, some non-chain pubs, coffee shops, small builders etc. will do so and are rarely caught. No large business will do it, but for small businesses it is not uncommon. 

Jeremy535897

MattMattMattUK said:

Jeremy535897 said:

I am not sure what you mean by "accredited". 

I generally meant those with relevant qualifications and members of professional bodies. 

Jeremy535897 said:

The term "accountant" is not reserved for those with specific qualifications, like the term "solicitor". 

It is a shame really, I also believe that Engineer should be reserved (as it is in Germany), eg someone is not an engineer because they can plug in a new TV or connect a broadband router.

Jeremy535897 said:

There are also various "accountancy" bodies who do not have any sort of entry requirements, although less so than in the past. 

I think it would be better if they all had entry requirements and were audited, but I know that level of scrutiny is just fantasy.

Jeremy535897 said:
There will be crooks who are unqualified, and crooks who are qualified.

Agreed, but most of the crooks seem to be qualified (so that they learned how to fiddle the system), but not not members of their professional bodies. Although the the one who did my ex-boss's dodgy accounts was both highly qualified and a member of CIMA and ACCA.

In a long career in accountancy and tax advice (qualified chartered accountant and chartered tax adviser), I am afraid to say that a significant number of the crooks I came across were ex-HMRC (they really did know how to game the system).

strawb_shortcake

My Brother has stupidly worked off the books a number of times and for significant periods. Some times as "self employed" others just plain cheating. 
His most recent job is off the books, he's treated quite poorly, work ridiculous hours on call with no proper downtime. He can be on call all weekend until 8am Monday morning, then expected to give straight back into normal hours. 
Apparently the employers does not have adequate insurance so any damage is docked from his wages, customers phone and complain that he got their carpets dirty, even though he has to wear boot liners. He has no chance to defend himself as the customer is always right. 
The employer also contracts for local councils, so there should be more robust checks in place, for insurance if nothing else. 
As my brother has knowingly been working illegally he can't really start causing a fuss now. 

Jeremy535897

annabanana82 said:

My Brother has stupidly worked off the books a number of times and for significant periods. Some times as "self employed" others just plain cheating. 
His most recent job is off the books, he's treated quite poorly, work ridiculous hours on call with no proper downtime. He can be on call all weekend until 8am Monday morning, then expected to give straight back into normal hours. 
Apparently the employers does not have adequate insurance so any damage is docked from his wages, customers phone and complain that he got their carpets dirty, even though he has to wear boot liners. He has no chance to defend himself as the customer is always right. 
The employer also contracts for local councils, so there should be more robust checks in place, for insurance if nothing else. 
As my brother has knowingly been working illegally he can't really start causing a fuss now. 

If he diligently filed a self assessment tax return every year with an accurate set of figures as if he was self employed, he would have some defence. 

gettingtheresometime

annabanana82 said:

The employer also contracts for local councils, so there should be more robust checks in place, for insurance if nothing else. 
. 

I can only speak from my experience but it sounds as if it's more to do with how on the ball a particular organisation is.
Practically on a yearly basis we get asked for up to date insurance certificates even by companies for whom we're not working for at the time.

strawb_shortcake

Jeremy535897 said:

annabanana82 said:

My Brother has stupidly worked off the books a number of times and for significant periods. Some times as "self employed" others just plain cheating. 
His most recent job is off the books, he's treated quite poorly, work ridiculous hours on call with no proper downtime. He can be on call all weekend until 8am Monday morning, then expected to give straight back into normal hours. 
Apparently the employers does not have adequate insurance so any damage is docked from his wages, customers phone and complain that he got their carpets dirty, even though he has to wear boot liners. He has no chance to defend himself as the customer is always right. 
The employer also contracts for local councils, so there should be more robust checks in place, for insurance if nothing else. 
As my brother has knowingly been working illegally he can't really start causing a fuss now. 

If he diligently filed a self assessment tax return every year with an accurate set of figures as if he was self employed, he would have some defence. 

Yes, he's 1st class idiot, that's never going to happen. How he managed to get a mortgage and not have it repossessed so far is a complete miracle, though bank of Mum and Dad has helped stave them off 

strawb_shortcake

gettingtheresometime said:

annabanana82 said:

The employer also contracts for local councils, so there should be more robust checks in place, for insurance if nothing else. 
. 

I can only speak from my experience but it sounds as if it's more to do with how on the ball a particular organisation is.
Practically on a yearly basis we get asked for up to date insurance certificates even by companies for whom we're not working for at the time.

I work in procurement and its something we check for on an annual basis, we have it written in the contract that it's a contractor obligation