CCJ without my knowledge

henrik777

Johnersh said:

@henrik777 I don't think it is ambiguous, but then I'm a lawyer. The point, to be fair to Gordon, is that this is case specific.

C will argue that it is entitled to rely on the dvla log, but that doesn't follow the more time the more conflicting evidence etc that there is that D *may* have moved.
 
The fact is that all lawyers are trained as to the importance of locating a correct address. The casual manner in which ppcs often issue to addresses obtained 3-4 yrs earlier is bordering on indefensible. The last known address concept is really there to stop people actively avoiding proceedings. Case law is awash with more inventive approaches - Facebook, insta, e-mail, SMS etc. 

There's always blog posts by Gordon on service. It's an area that produces so many cases which tells me it's pretty tricky. If it were straightforward there would hardly be any. Or there are a lot of chancers about, which many debt chasers ..........


When BW Legal lodge actual claim forms signed BW Legal i tend to lose faith in the value of a law qualification although on the flipside being a keen follower of Gordon Exall you do see there are also people who are at a much higher competency level.

Johnersh

It's easy enough to get wrong, but service in this context really isn't complicated. The ppcs can't be assuming addresses obtained long before issue are sound if they never elicit a response. 

Also it's not so much that service is tricky as a concept, it's not really. More often it's that people get busy and leave important stuff til the last minute. There are a number of elements that can go wrong.--

If you inadvertently put the wrong postcode, send documents to a defendant and not their nominated lawyer, apply insufficient postage stamps etc etc, you risk there being no time to rectify it. So never serve on the last day, if possible! 

As failed service is often a complete defence once primary limitation has expired, the issue will always fight which = more hearings. 

Sebastian83

Redx said:

This first hearing is only about a set aside , not the court claim for the PCN

There would be a second hearing about the claim if CEL take it further , where you provide the defence etc , your defence to the actual original court claim , the set aside should contain details and directions on what to do and any deadlines

If you win hearing one for a set aside for CCJ 1 and yet lost hearing 2 , you pay the judgment within 30 days , preferably as soon as possible , to avoid the second CCJ  affecting your credit rating , so not trashed for 6 years , you are wrong there

So if you win the set aside and lose the subsequent case , pay up , ASAP , promptly , in full , to CEL

Most people going through this have no knowledge about the laws or legal topics , not just you , just stick to facts , not assumptions , if CEL cannot produce missing evidence you would expect them to fail , they are not very good at litigation where people fight back

Thank you.

So just to be clear that I understand this:

Right now I do not have to do anything defence wise, but only after winning the first hearing? Or would I still need to send a written defence in prior to the telephone appointment to argue that I have a real prospect of defending the claim? 
In my initial set aside application I wasn't able to bring this in as Civil Enforcement only sent me the paperwork after one month. 

And speaking of Civil Enforcement,  should I reply back to their email at all, as they say in the email that they will show the judge the letter? 

Sebastian83

henrik777 said:

A defence is after a set aside but can also assist with "a real prospect".



One of the reasons that people confuse themselves regarding set asides is the determination to perfect the defence which distracts so many from the main task of getting a set aside application done.

Sorry for asking again, but I'm still confused here. Should I bring in a defence prior to the telephone appointment or only after the hearing in case I won the first hearing? 

Johnersh

There are 2 approaches to set aside and different rules for each.  Mandatory and Discretionary.

If you are applying under the latter provisions (whether as your main argument or as a "fall back" position) you'll need to address the real prospects point, which is often achieved with a *draft* defence.

If you do that, make sure you get time to dot the i's and cross the t's. Usually an order is made something like C has 14 days to serve and D 14 days thereafter.

Sebastian83

Johnersh said:

There are 2 approaches to set aside and different rules for each.  Mandatory and Discretionary.

If you are applying under the latter provisions (whether as your main argument or as a "fall back" position) you'll need to address the real prospects point, which is often achieved with a *draft* defence.

If you do that, make sure you get time to dot the i's and cross the t's. Usually an order is made something like C has 14 days to serve and D 14 days thereafter.

In my initial application I have applied under mandatory as well as under discretionary.

Mandatory as no letter has ever been served to my actual address, which I have proven through tenancy agreements, utility bills, driving license, etc.

Discretionary I couldn't really bring arguement at that time, as I had no clue what the claim was about. 


In the meantime however I know that a) I have never parked there for 2 days and b) that Civil Enforcement can not present any CCTV.

I have checked a few draft defences in this forum and I'm pretty sure I could write a defence, highlighting these facts. 

But as far as I understand you, I do not have to do this now, but only after the telephone appointment, right? 

At the appointment I basically only have to bring in arguments why the judgement should be set aside, like it never has been served and I have prospect to win the case as the claim itself is wrong and can't be proven by the claimant? 

Le_Kirk

It will not be CCTV but ANPR.  In the days of F2F hearings for set-asides, it was advised to have a defence "in your back pocket" just in case the judge asked if you had a credible chance of defending the underlying claim.  This obviously is not possible in a video or telephone hearing but it would be foolish not to have drafted something that could be sent by e-mail should the judge request it.

Sebastian83

Le_Kirk said:

It will not be CCTV but ANPR.  In the days of F2F hearings for set-asides, it was advised to have a defence "in your back pocket" just in case the judge asked if you had a credible chance of defending the underlying claim.  This obviously is not possible in a video or telephone hearing but it would be foolish not to have drafted something that could be sent by e-mail should the judge request it.

That sounds sensible.

Then I will write a draft defence and tell the judge at the telephone appointment that I can send them through via email.

Could anyone advise, if I should get back to Civil Enforcements legal team? As they said they will show the judge the email, would it be reasonable to reply to the email and point out that I deny paying their "offer" as I simply dont owe them any money? 

Coupon-mad

No need to reply.

Sebastian83

Coupon-mad said:

No need to reply.

Thank you!

I will then take my chances, work on a draft defense before the telephone appointment, get all my arguments together and try to fight the claim.
The easiest way probably would be just to pay what they want, but they have caused me so much trouble in my private life, I just want to fight it now, as it is simply not right what they are doing.