Central Heating Balancing

Verb

If anyone has any further advice it would be appreashiated.

The problem I am encountering is that the radiators upstairs are regularly putting out little or no heat whilst the radiators downstairs are red hot. Can anyone explain what is happening and what i need to do to fix it.

I've started balancing my radiators by closing all the lockshield vales on the upstairs radiators and then opening them 1 quarter of a turn. This seems to have worked as the upstairs and downstairs radiators now get hot at the same rate. 
Downstairs radiators are set to number 5 on the thermostatic valve as this is the biggest area and upstairs is set to either 2 or 3 depending which bedroom it is.
All radiators have been bled

lesalanos

Are the radiators not just doing how you have set them by setting the TRV to 2 upstairs and 5 down?

What happens if you put upstairs on 5? 

Chickereeeee

Verb said:

If anyone has any further advice it would be appreashiated.

The problem I am encountering is that the radiators upstairs are regularly putting out little or no heat whilst the radiators downstairs are red hot. Can anyone explain what is happening and what i need to do to fix it.

I've started balancing my radiators by closing all the lockshield vales on the upstairs radiators and then opening them 1 quarter of a turn. This seems to have worked as the upstairs and downstairs radiators now get hot at the same rate. 
Downstairs radiators are set to number 5 on the thermostatic valve as this is the biggest area and upstairs is set to either 2 or 3 depending which bedroom it is.
All radiators have been bled

You should be monitoring the temperature of the rooms, rather than the radiators. The TRV should, ideally, be set to the room temperature you require, not 'how big the room is'. So, set themmall to 3. If a room is too cold, turnnthe TRV up a bit. If too warm, turn it down.
Re: balancing - have you got that the right way round? Generally, if a radiator is gettting too HOT initially, you would close the lockshield a bit. After a while, in the steady state, the TRVs shiuld be doing most of the balancing for you.

Alter_ego

Chickereeeee said:

You should be monitoring the temperature of the rooms, rather than the radiators.


After a while, in the steady state, the TRVs shiuld be doing most of the balancing for you.

     No and no

neilmcl

Verb said:

If anyone has any further advice it would be appreashiated.

The problem I am encountering is that the radiators upstairs are regularly putting out little or no heat whilst the radiators downstairs are red hot. Can anyone explain what is happening and what i need to do to fix it.

I've started balancing my radiators by closing all the lockshield vales on the upstairs radiators and then opening them 1 quarter of a turn. This seems to have worked as the upstairs and downstairs radiators now get hot at the same rate. 
Downstairs radiators are set to number 5 on the thermostatic valve as this is the biggest area and upstairs is set to either 2 or 3 depending which bedroom it is.
All radiators have been bled

Turn up the TRVs to the upstairs radiators, I don't think this is anything to do with balancing, if anything you'd normally see the rads upstairs getting hotter, quicker than the ones downstairs in an unbalanced system as they're usually first in line from your boiler. FYI, if you're going to balance the system then you must fully open the TRVs on all radiators whilst you do it. 

Also don't forget, heat rises so your upstairs rooms may well be hot enough. Worth getting yourself a decent room thermometer and checking the temps.

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi Verb. 

The TRVs control how hot the rooms get. Once the room reaches that temp - roughly 20oC for '3', I think - the rad will be shiut down and even off to maintain that temp.

The 'lockshield' is what's used for balancing the rads in a system because without them the rads closest to the boiler would get the strongest flow.

To 'balance' a system, the control valves - eg the TRV - should be fully open, so that only the effect of the lockshields are being looked at. So, if you were to start from cold, open up all the TRVs fully, and then turn on your CH, how the rads then heat up is your guide to how well balanced they are; a well-balanced system should have all the rads heating up at pretty much the same speed.

Strangely, you seem to have closed off the upstairs lockshields (1/4-turn is barely open) when you seemingly wanted them to heat up more. 

With all 'control' valves fully open, your rads should ALL heat up at around the SAME rate, and ALL should get and REMAIN hot. They should only cool down again when you close off their control valves - eg TRVs. So, if you want to know if your system is balanced, that's what you need to try.

(PS - before you adjust any other lockshields, FIRST count the EXACT number of turns and part-turns each takes to be fully closed off. Write that down and tape it to the lockshield. You can then return to these starting figures if needed. Quite often the LSs closest to the boiler will be less than one turn open - 1/4-1/2-turn is not unusual - whereas the rads further away will have theirs open a full turn or more.)

Verb

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Hi Verb. 

The TRVs control how hot the rooms get. Once the room reaches that temp - roughly 20oC for '3', I think - the rad will be shiut down and even off to maintain that temp.

The 'lockshield' is what's used for balancing the rads in a system because without them the rads closest to the boiler would get the strongest flow.

To 'balance' a system, the control valves - eg the TRV - should be fully open, so that only the effect of the lockshields are being looked at. So, if you were to start from cold, open up all the TRVs fully, and then turn on your CH, how the rads then heat up is your guide to how well balanced they are; a well-balanced system should have all the rads heating up at pretty much the same speed.

Strangely, you seem to have closed off the upstairs lockshields (1/4-turn is barely open) when you seemingly wanted them to heat up more. 

With all 'control' valves fully open, your rads should ALL heat up at around the SAME rate, and ALL should get and REMAIN hot. They should only cool down again when you close off their control valves - eg TRVs. So, if you want to know if your system is balanced, that's what you need to try.

(PS - before you adjust any other lockshields, FIRST count the EXACT number of turns and part-turns each takes to be fully closed off. Write that down and tape it to the lockshield. You can then return to these starting figures if needed. Quite often the LSs closest to the boiler will be less than one turn open - 1/4-1/2-turn is not unusual - whereas the rads further away will have theirs open a full turn or more.)

Hi
I think I've balanced them okay as when the TRVs are fully open they all heat up at the same rate, although the radiator nearest the boilers lockshield is barely open and it still gets the hottest the fastest, but it is only 1.5 meters away. The radiators down stairs have there lockshields fully open.
My real query was is it wrong that the radiators upstairs that are set to 3 do completely cool right down when downstairs is on 5. Should the radiators upstairs just keep a constant temp? a constant warm feel to touch.

I may have a relook and balancing tomorrow. When balancing should I have the lockshields fully open and gradually close them as required or start with the lockshields all fully closed and open a small turn at a time. 

EssexExile

Verb said:

My real query was is it wrong that the radiators upstairs that are set to 3 do completely cool right down when downstairs is on 5. Should the radiators upstairs just keep a constant temp? a constant warm feel to touch.

Once the room is at the required temperature the TRV will turn the radiator off. It will come on again when the TRV decides the room needs heating again. Depending on your lifestyle that could be hours later. We leave most of our doors open all the time and, as heat rises, the upstairs radiators rarely come back on once the house is warmed up.

lesalanos

Verb said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Hi Verb. 

The TRVs control how hot the rooms get. Once the room reaches that temp - roughly 20oC for '3', I think - the rad will be shiut down and even off to maintain that temp.

The 'lockshield' is what's used for balancing the rads in a system because without them the rads closest to the boiler would get the strongest flow.

To 'balance' a system, the control valves - eg the TRV - should be fully open, so that only the effect of the lockshields are being looked at. So, if you were to start from cold, open up all the TRVs fully, and then turn on your CH, how the rads then heat up is your guide to how well balanced they are; a well-balanced system should have all the rads heating up at pretty much the same speed.

Strangely, you seem to have closed off the upstairs lockshields (1/4-turn is barely open) when you seemingly wanted them to heat up more. 

With all 'control' valves fully open, your rads should ALL heat up at around the SAME rate, and ALL should get and REMAIN hot. They should only cool down again when you close off their control valves - eg TRVs. So, if you want to know if your system is balanced, that's what you need to try.

(PS - before you adjust any other lockshields, FIRST count the EXACT number of turns and part-turns each takes to be fully closed off. Write that down and tape it to the lockshield. You can then return to these starting figures if needed. Quite often the LSs closest to the boiler will be less than one turn open - 1/4-1/2-turn is not unusual - whereas the rads further away will have theirs open a full turn or more.)

Hi
I think I've balanced them okay as when the TRVs are fully open they all heat up at the same rate, although the radiator nearest the boilers lockshield is barely open and it still gets the hottest the fastest, but it is only 1.5 meters away. The radiators down stairs have there lockshields fully open.
My real query was is it wrong that the radiators upstairs that are set to 3 do completely cool right down when downstairs is on 5. Should the radiators upstairs just keep a constant temp? a constant warm feel to touch.

I may have a relook and balancing tomorrow. When balancing should I have the lockshields fully open and gradually close them as required or start with the lockshields all fully closed and open a small turn at a time. 

The TRV regulate the temperature of the room, not the radiator 

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi
I think I've balanced them okay as when the TRVs are fully open they all heat up at the same rate, Good - that makes sense; they should all heat up at around the same rate. 

although the radiator nearest the boilers lockshield is barely open and it still gets the hottest the fastest, but it is only 1.5 meters away. That's fine - being so close to the boiler means it's getting by far the greatest flow. 

The radiators down stairs have there lockshields fully open. Eh?! I'd assumed the boiler would have been downstairs too! Is it not? If not, where the hell is it?!

My real query was is it wrong that the radiators upstairs that are set to 3 do completely cool right down when downstairs is on 5. Should the radiators upstairs just keep a constant temp? a constant warm feel to touch. '3' equates to roughly 20oC. '5' equates to pretty much fully open regardless, or 'bludy hot' or in excess of 25oC or summat. If you set a TRV in ANY room to '3', then the associated rad will gradually shut off as the room temp reaches 20oC and it will remain off as long as the room remains at 20oC. As the room cools down again, the TRV will gradually open and the rad will come slowly back on again. I suspect that's all that's happening in your upstairs rooms - they hit 20oC and the rads therefore shut off and become cold. You might think the room is also cold, but I suspect it's still pretty much 20oC as it's getting heating from downstairs, so actually your rads - TRVs - are working as they should. 

You want these rooms warmer? Turn yer bludy TRVs up then... :-) In theory - and with a very sensitive TRV - it should shut the rad off slowly as it approaches 'set' temp (eg '3' = 20oC) and could then just sit there partially open - so rad still 'warmish' - to maintain that temp. In reality, they have some mechanical lag and stickiness, so don't be too surprised if they shut off completely when the 'set' temp has been reached, and then come on only when the room temp has dropped a good degree or so. 

Meanwhile, of course, there is a wall thermostat in the house and this shuts the WHOLE boiler off when the temp in THAT room has been reached, so the TRVs become redundant in many ways. The room with the wall stat should NOT also have TRVs on their rads - the rads should control the wall stat without interference from TRVs there. A 'balanced' system, therefore, should provide the temps required for each room depending on what they are - 'living' areas, bedrooms, hallways etc. It's a crudish system, but it's a good compromise between control and cost.

I may have a relook and balancing tomorrow. When balancing should I have the lockshields fully open and gradually close them as required or start with the lockshields all fully closed and open a small turn at a time. 

From what you say, your system seems to be pretty much ok. The rads at 3 are shutting off before the ones at 5! To properly balance a system from scratch requires a couple of rad pipe thermometers and a lot of time. It involves something like comparing the inlet and outlet temps of each rad, and setting the lockshield so's it's summat like 11oC difference. Best not go there.  

neilmcl

Alter_ego said:

Chickereeeee said:

You should be monitoring the temperature of the rooms, rather than the radiators.


After a while, in the steady state, the TRVs shiuld be doing most of the balancing for you.

     No and no

What a helpful post.