What to do?? Declaration of Trust, or otherwise.???

TopSound

Aranyani said:

Agreed, when they are peace loving and not as feisty as the one in question here. This one has already made numerous disgusting comments and is clearly politically and personally motivated. I have no doubts that she will scheme in the background till she has everyone eating out of the palm of her hand, and frankly she has sibling strung by the cahonas. That he's willingly complicit and fully pushing the same agenda is where it gets dangerous as he has power to stamp it out should he wish, but instead he's bought into the same ideology - self interest.

This is sounding more and more like there might be two sides to this story so I think I'll leave it there.

Thanks - I can assure you this isn't just some sibling rivalry where I don't get on with siblings partner - we were good friends till this all kicked off; but unless you're party to the full facts it isn't entirely clear what's what so I can only say that I'm genuinely just trying to stop my family continuing with their insane ways...

There is long term history without our family of constant battles between siblings, aunties, uncles etc - most of whom have ended up staying from my mother simply because of the nonsense she inflicted on a lot of people. My sibling is doing the same, his wife his fueling the fire as she stands to benefit for a couple hundred grand off the back of it - but yes I can see why you're not sure - there are always two sides, but in this instance they're the cause of this.

I'm trying to avoid a situation where I have to also break my relationship with my mother, and avoid her getting screwed over in the process! 

TopSound

getmore4less said:

The house is valued in the region of £500 to £550k, with mortgage outstanding of roughly £150k; 

Value was roughly £200k four years ago when divorce happened etc and equity at that point wasn't majorly huge, c. £100k.
£50k added to the mortgage and value more than doubled in 4 years is a lot.

So again, I was a bit clueless on all of this by my own admission back then, and since this has all happened I feel in myself I've matured and I'm starting to realise after the way I've been treated that not everyone has perfect intentions.

As for the sums of money involved, yes I believe circa that; it has appreciated a lot, but that might be only partly driven by house price appreciation; it may be the way it was valued was possibly at distress price due to divorce. 

TopSound

Spendless said:

So you went  on the mortgage and deeds at the point your parents divorced, whilst not being party to all the legalities and not fully understanding. And now your feel pressurised into giving it up because you fear the repercussions for your Mum if you don't. At the point your parents divorced why didn't your brother take over full ownership if he's considered the rightful heir in your culture. I suspect it's because he wasn't earning enough to get a mortgage at that point and therefore you were needed for your financial 'usefulness' If you gift your share to either your Mum or sibling, wouldn't you also come off the mortgage at that point? Does your brother earn enough to have one in his sole name? What would the situation be re the mortgage if you were to sign over your share? .Sorry if this has already been covered or I've not grasped something. 

Yes on the whole that was the case; sibling didn't and doesn't earn enough for the sole mortgage - hence why originally sibling and partner were to be beneficiaries as partner earns more than sibling (under the lie that mother was unable to obtain a mortgage). They tried to effectively rush through this set up, under extreme pressure (multiple daily harrassment calls, daily arguments and bust ups, emails, texts, generally an awful atmosphere created by them all while I was living in the house, which then escalated to the point of turning up places unannounced to catch me out). 

I believe they rushed it for the sole purpose of ensuring that I didn't have much time to think it through - hoping I'd do the same as I did previously at time of divorce. When I resisted even slightly; simply in order to do my own due diligence, sibling got incredibly angry to the point of physical anger (anger which I've heard has since been directed at mother, though no one wants to admit it) at which point I had to remove myself.

Upon questioning this set up, and them realising the story wasn't adding up, mother suddenly and magically was able to obtain a mortgage after all - I believe this was for the purpose of being a conduit to a further transfer to sibling and partner as soon as I've been removed. This won't be done clear cut and full frontal, but will be done underhand and manipulatively over time. I suspect either they will try to sell the house, ask for proceeds to be gifted to them so collectively they can take a new house and mortgage but mother will be left off any titles/deeds, and then end up forced out, or they will say to transfer over to them for some other reason. Mother will eventually give in - she's given in to so much of their manipulation so far, and even transmitted it on which just smacks of brainwashing.

Indeed I was needed for the mortgage at that point; if I was to sign it over, irrespective of who receives the share, it will end up being my mother who pays the mortgage - which is disgusting as sibling is effectively living rent free while making her life hell. My mother recognises this, but because she doesn't want to end up alone, and sibling knows this, is using all emotional tactics to effectively get her to bend to sibling and partners will.

Thank you for your reply.

Gavin83

I’ll be honest here. I think regardless of the option you choose you have to accept that your relationship with your sibling is gone. Therefore I would make no attempt to salvage this.

Personally I’d keep the financial situation exactly as it is. If the sibling continues to pressure you tell them not to contact you further. Your relationship with your mother might be hurt in the short term but ultimately she’ll need you and therefore will want contact again in the future. 

I think whatever happens now she’ll be kicked out, won’t retain any contact with your sibling or the grandchildren and will become your responsibility. Therefore wherever option you take the outcome is likely the same, the only decision you need to make is whether your mother ends up with money or not.

Personally I think it would be foolish to sign over the property unless you’re entirely determined to walk away from your mother when the time comes. However you can’t control your mother’s actions, if she lets herself be taken advantage of that’s not your responsibility.

Out of curiosity (apologies if you’ve already said and I missed it) do you have children yourself?

Savvy_Sue

TopSound said:

There is long term history without our family of constant battles between siblings, aunties, uncles etc - most of whom have ended up staying from my mother simply because of the nonsense she inflicted on a lot of people. My sibling is doing the same, his wife his fueling the fire as she stands to benefit for a couple hundred grand off the back of it - but yes I can see why you're not sure - there are always two sides, but in this instance they're the cause of this.

I'm trying to avoid a situation where I have to also break my relationship with my mother, and avoid her getting screwed over in the process! 

I agree with what Gavin says: you can't please all of the people off of the time, and you're going to have to choose at some point between your mother and your sibling. I think you've made that choice. 

HOWEVER, I'm also struck by the bit I've bolded. I think you have to recognise that you may not be able to keep a relationship with either of them, in which case trying to ensure your mother is not 'fleeced' is the best you can do. 

TBagpuss

If you leave things as they stand, you are on a joint mortgage with your sibling, yes? 
That has disadvantages for you as it may impact your own ability to get a mortgage, and puts you at risk if the mortgage goes into arrears.
If your sibling and their partner want to have the house go into their names because they can get a better deal o a new mortgage then a transfer of the property and  a declaration of trust securing your interest (and your mum's right to remain living there) would provide some safeguards. 

Do your brother and his partner live in the house? 
Have you been able to talk to your mum way from your brother to find out what she wants? 

I personally would suggest telling your brother that you would be willing to either:
(1) Leave things exactly as they are
(2) Agree to him and his partner buying you out for the open market value of your interest in the property (i.e. 50% of the current net equity) on the basis that he agrees to sign a trust deed making clear that your mum has a life interest in the property and is entitled to live there until her death (and you can, if you wish, then set your share of the money aside and use it to help you mum with the mortgage or to buy a property for her to live in f she falls out with your brother)
(3) agree to the house being sold on the basis that a small property is purchased mortgage free for mum to live in, either in her name alone, or in your and brother's names with a trust deed to make clear that mum has a life interest and is entitled to live in the property.
(4) sign your share of the house over to you mum and let her deal with her own son (take advise before doing this - based on what you've aid about the figures you would probably have to pay CGT on the increase in value of your interest in the property even if you transferred it to you mum for free)

I'm not sure whether you and your partner own a property but by helping your mum our you've probably lost any access for help for first time buyers, nd as above may well wind up paying CGT on your share of mum's house, so whatever else you do, make sure you talk to a professional who can advise you on the tax and other financial implications before you do anything.