Totting up 12 points

sarahc777

I was looking for some advice, I’ve totted up and have now got to 12 points out of my own stupidity. I have got the letter through to plead guilty or not guilty. I am going to plead guilty and I will need to represent myself in court? Does anyone have any tips as I can’t afford representation in court and I need my licence for work otherwise I will lose my job? Also the evidence they sent me shows what time I left the average speed check but not what time I entered or how many miles the average speed was taken over! Is this acceptable evidence to submit to me? Any help would be appreciated.

onlyfoolsandparking

1, Plead guilty to what?
2, Representing yourself in court is not without risk but is perfectly acceptable.
3, You 'can't' afford representation but can you afford the financial impact of having no license and 'losing your job' for whatever period ban you may get (I use the word 'may' as it is possible to keep a license with 12 points, subject to Magistrates ruling)
4, The evidence at this stage appears acceptable to them and they have decided to pursue you for speeding (I assume speeding) unless you can prove otherwise, YOU need to find out whether the 'missing' info you quote harms their chances of a successful prosecution although your intention to plead guilty would make all your questioning of evidence irrelevant, all that questioning of their evidence would come into effect if you plead not guilty.

I'm no expert in this field and others may be along with stronger advice but I have heard that if your able to prove how important your license is to you and how much not having one will negatively impact you, some Magistrates will allow you to keep it.  




   

Dr_Crypto

Exceptional hardship.
You’ve to to show that there will be an exceptional hardship on someone else, not just you. So you losing your job isn’t enough. However, if you’re the only earner in your family and your partner can’t work (or your a single parent) then it might mean your children lose their house with you. 

Do you routinely drive sick relatives around? With evidence. A disabled child with weekly hospital appointments, not just taking your aunt to the GP every few months. 

AdrianC

sarahc777 said:

I was looking for some advice, I’ve totted up and have now got to 12 points out of my own stupidity. I have got the letter through to plead guilty or not guilty. I am going to plead guilty and I will need to represent myself in court? Does anyone have any tips as I can’t afford representation in court and I need my licence for work otherwise I will lose my job? Also the evidence they sent me shows what time I left the average speed check but not what time I entered or how many miles the average speed was taken over! Is this acceptable evidence to submit to me? Any help would be appreciated.

Your current court case is not over the ban - it's over the speeding offence that's taking you to 12 points. You will need to show that you didn't do it...

Yes, they will produce fuller evidence to the court if you plead not guilty. If you plead guilty, then you accept that they were right, you did indeed do it - so the evidence is not required.

As far as the totting up goes, as soon as you get to 12 points in three years, you are banned with a TT99. UNLESS you can show severe hardship. Not to yourself. "I'll lose my job" is not enough - you should have thought of that. It needs to be severe hardship to others. Who else relies on you having a driving licence? Will others lose their jobs because they rely on you? Will members of your family become housebound?

Remember, too, that getting the totting ban put aside because of that extreme hardship will simply see a far larger fine imposed instead... and that it's a one-off... You cannot play the same card twice.

TooManyPoints

 you should have thought of that. It needs to be severe hardship to others.

To be pedantic, the term is “exceptional hardship.” But it is an important difference because the hardship does not necessarily have to be severe. It has to be over and above that which would follow for anybody subject to a ban. It does not necessarily have to be exceptional hardship for others. The driver himself may be able to show that he will suffer EH if banned, though EH visited on others usually carries more weight (on the basis that others should not – as far as possible – suffer for the transgressions of the driver). 

Remember, too, that getting the totting ban put aside because of that extreme hardship will simply see a far larger fine imposed instead...

That is incorrect. The defendant is sentenced (fine and points according to the guidelines) and he is then asked whether he wants to present an EH argument. There is no trade-off between the fine and a totting-up ban. The fine is calculated and announced before the EH plea is even considered and the two are independent.

You need to split the two issues (the current offence and the potential “totting-up” ban). In order to enter your plea to the latest offence you should be served with the “Initial Details of the Prosecution Case.” This is usually the details of the evidence the prosecution intends to rely on to convict you. In summary this must include:

· summary of the circumstances of the offence, and

·any account given by the defendant in interview, whether contained in that summary or in another document, and

·any written witness statement or exhibit that the prosecutor then has available and considers material to plea, or to the allocation of the case for trial, or to sentence. 

From your description the material you have does not serve that purpose. You should be able to determine the details of the allegation; at the very least you should be able to see what speed is alleged and you cannot do that from what you have been served. That said, it is not a “get-out-of-jail-free” card. If you really want it you can ask for it before entering your plea. However, do you believe you were speeding? If so you might as well save yourself the trouble and concentrate on your EH argument as it would be quite unusual for the prosecution to be unable to prove their case. Just because they may not have sent that proof to you does not mean it does not exist.

As Adrian has said, simply saying you will lose your job alone will not cut the mustard. First of all you need to have some evidence of that (e.g. a letter from your employer). Then you need to be able to show that you will be unable to find alternative employment that does not involve being able to drive. Then you need to show what will follow from that, e.g. loss of home, no funds to keep those dependent on you, difficulties for others who rely on you being able to drive. In the past few months Magistrates have been given additional guidance on dealing with EH arguments as there was a general belief that there were too many circumstances which were being accepted as “exceptional”. So you face, perhaps, a more difficult task than you might have done earlier this year.

clearancer

A couple of years ago I was in your position. I instructed legal representation because I was sure I wasn't guilty, I'd been clocked twice on the same stretch 24 hours apart and I was absolutely sure I was driving within the speed limit. My solicitor didn't dispute the tickets. My defence was: I would be unable to do my job, my parents lived 60 miles away and depended on my weekly visits, and my partner didn't drive. I was allowed to continue to drive with 12 points. I was angry she didn't dispute the speeding tickets but she didn't care, she'd "done her job and saved my licence". 

Car_54

clearancer said:

A couple of years ago I was in your position. I instructed legal representation because I was sure I wasn't guilty, I'd been clocked twice on the same stretch 24 hours apart and I was absolutely sure I was driving within the speed limit. My solicitor didn't dispute the tickets. My defence was: I would be unable to do my job, my parents lived 60 miles away and depended on my weekly visits, and my partner didn't drive. I was allowed to continue to drive with 12 points. I was angry she didn't dispute the speeding tickets but she didn't care, she'd "done her job and saved my licence". 

Your solicitor undoubtedly realised there was no defence to the speeding charges. What you've mentioned was not a defence but an exceptional hardship plea, which obviously was successful.

As mentioned above, magistrates now have stricter guidelines on these pleas, and I doubt whether your plea would work today, as follows:

- Loss of job: not in any way exceptional

- Parents dependent on visits: why? Public transport?

- Non-driving artner: public transport?

TooManyPoints

MinuteNoodles said:

At least there's one thing, if you get banned that's one less person I have to worry about causing the accident that results in me going to the hospital or the undertakers insted of me going home. Takes a special level of stupid to manage to get banned from totting up, especially given that once people get to 6 points and especially 9 points they tend to mend their ways for a while until some come off. That level of stupid shouldn't be allowed a driving licence ever.

I think there's a "no judgement" convention on here. There's plenty of places you can voice that sort of opinion. The OP came here for help and advice.

ontheroad1970

TooManyPoints said:

MinuteNoodles said:

At least there's one thing, if you get banned that's one less person I have to worry about causing the accident that results in me going to the hospital or the undertakers insted of me going home. Takes a special level of stupid to manage to get banned from totting up, especially given that once people get to 6 points and especially 9 points they tend to mend their ways for a while until some come off. That level of stupid shouldn't be allowed a driving licence ever.

I think there's a "no judgement" convention on here. There's plenty of places you can voice that sort of opinion. The OP came here for help and advice.

Perhaps there should be, but I don't believe there is.  There is on pepipoo, though.

TooManyPoints

Perhaps there should be, but I don't believe there is.  There is on pepipoo, though.

On Pepipoo it's a rule. A post like the one above would simply be removed. On here I think it's more of an unwritten convention.

daveyjp

OP.   Time for some self help.  No one is a perfect driver.  Some just get away with it.

It would work in your favour to start looking at why you find it difficult to drive within the law.  You either aren't aware of the laws, your skills and knowledge of car control are lacking, external factors put you in a position of feeling the need to break the law (work pressure, family pressure etc), or you simply don't care about the rules of the road.  A combination of all of them is likely.

If you haven't had any lessons or training since passing your test get signed up now for additional training before you go to Court.  IAM, ROSPA or have some more lessons.

You will then be able to demonstrate to the Magistrates you are addressing your shortcomings.