Boiler issues / Pipework illegal.

pedram

Hi All,

@Bris, yep I would agree that the quality of workmanship wasn't good, you are correct - we did have other issue with the plumbing / fitting in the bathroom - it's the flat that keeps on giving.  The chap owns a plot of land at the back of the property and he's just let it go wild as he was refused planning permission to build on it, so pretty inconsiderate.

@Jeepers_Creeper, thanks so much for the detailed and funny post - this forum is a really nice reminder there are decent people out there I hope this information helps other people in my situation. You are spot on, they certainly wrote off the boiler due to the brand. You are right it doesn't have great reviews but if there is a part that's gone, like the pump then why not try to replace it, at least try or don't take the job on. If the boiler stretches for a few more years then that's all I was hoping for. They were extremely quick at sending me new boiler replacement options - which took me back as I just wasn't expecting it 

Both from your post and @nofoollikeold - it seems like the pipes are not great but not illegal either (good to know), so getting someone out shouldn't be an issue as long as they are not a Revenist - nice term  At the moment the brand is causing an issue but I'll keep ringing to see if it's economically viable to fix it (that's my preference), to be honest it may not be worth it.. I've probably spent £370 on repairs / call outs already.

@Mickey666, I actually did call them - honestly the customer service was a pleasant conversation. However they don't have their own engineers for call outs, and their local list is not up to date. He recommended a couple of companies up North but because I'm down South, I needed to find someone local and they offer free technical advice.

I've been sending messages to companies on checkatrade so I'll see what comes back tomorrow. Again two of the companies that got back to me said they simply don't work on Ravenheat as they are problematic..  

I've looked online and a new install is between £500 - £1k plus part cost - does that sound about right?

I'll let you know how I get on - thanks so much for all the comments - great community!

Jeepers_Creepers

"Our Repair and Relax option for your Ravenheat boiler repair is just £239.99". http://www.mrboilerrepairs.co.uk/boiler-repairs/ravenheat-boiler-repairs/

Do you know what's actually wrong with your boiler? What are the symptoms? Did the guy say anything about this? This might have a large bearing on how to take this further - ie. the chances of an affordable repair.

Yes, to replace the boiler would be between these figures. The actual boiler itself will be around £800 to just over £1k depending on make. A boiler swap is a very straight-forward job that should be done comfortably within a day. The only awkward part can be the flue, but hopefully that can be a straight swap too; sometimes there's access issues if the room is higher up the building, for example, or the flue type is completely different, but the fitter should choose a new boiler taking this into account.

I'm not sure about the regulation 'legality' of the existing pipework, but I am saying that's there's no scenario I can think of where the plastic piping in that boiler poses any risk in itself. Also, to replace the offending parts would be a 30-minute job for me, a DIYer, and cost around £15 in parts.

Did you pay anything for this abortive call-out? If so, I would personally take great pleasure in harassing them about their 'reasoning' until they capitulated. 

It might be a rubbish boiler make - I don't know - but 6 years is no age at all. On that note, there is also the Consumer Rights Act (I think that's the latest?) which makes it clear that goods should be of satisfactory quality. The provided warranty is largely irrelevant here - there can be no suggestion that a major appliance like a boiler can only be expected to last 3 years without fault. If the fixed-price repair above is not a goer, I'd be piling pressure on Ravenheat to at least contribute significantly towards a repair. I wouldn't hesitate to Moneyclaim.org them either. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this - it's nuts.

bris

Ok as said the installation is not correct. It is illegal, the minimum from copper to the boiler is 1m here it is take from a Ravenheat installing manual
IMPORTANT: A minimum length of 1 metre of copper pipe MUST be fitted to both the flow and return, as well as the cold mains inlet and the hot water outlet connections from the boiler before connecting to any plastic piping.

Jeepers_Creepers

Fair do's, Bris.

My point is that (a) it is pedantic to condemn it (tho' that's no excuse - if it's against regs it's against regs) and (b) the guy could have sorted it in 30 minutes and for little cost if he'd felt inclined to or even offered as an option.

On the first point, I suspect previous service/repair guys tutted, raised their eyes and possibly even chuckled at the work, but carried on knowing it wasn't - in practice - a real issue. I'd love to know under what circumstances it could become an issue - honestly, I can't think of any realistic situation. By the time the fact that there's plastic pipe less than 1m from the boiler becomes an 'issue', there will be far bigger issues to deal with. 

But, fair do's. It's a requirement. But easily sorted. If needed. Warranted a 'condemning' of the boiler? Pfffft. 

nofoollikeold

1. Taken from the installation instructions for the Ravenheat CSI 85, page 12, section 4.8.2 "Copper tubing to BS 2871 1.1.1971 is recommended for water pipes. Jointing should be either with capillary soldered or with compression fittings. ..." 
2. Quite agree agree normal practice is copper within 1 metre of boiler, but unless I'm missing something, that's not what the manufacturer's instructions state in this case.
3. Why is it "illegal"?  What law or regulation is being broken?

comeandgo

bris said:

Ok as said the installation is not correct. It is illegal, the minimum from copper to the boiler is 1m here it is take from a Ravenheat installing manual
IMPORTANT: A minimum length of 1 metre of copper pipe MUST be fitted to both the flow and return, as well as the cold mains inlet and the hot water outlet connections from the boiler before connecting to any plastic piping.

Why is it illegal?  Which legal law are they breaking?

pedram

Thanks everyone for the response.
@bris - what page is that information on - I can't seem to find it unfortunately?   
@nofoollikeold - yes, that's how I read it also the manual states its a recommendation not a requirement. I've also reached out to the company that came around - asking them what law was broken, I'm yet to get a response back - thanks for the links above.

The benchmark commissioning checklist wasn't filled out, so apparently according to the manual that would have invalidated my Ravenheat warranty anyway.

Using the fault finding guide on page 40, the outcome could be:
'Check \ Replace Low water Pressure Switch', Check/Replace pump, Replace summer/winter switch or Check/Replace Timeclock if OK Replace control board -- to be honest I would need a volt meter to clarify, I was hoping the GS engineer would check these things in the call out   

Jeepers_Creepers

pedram said:

Using the fault finding guide on page 40, the outcome could be:
'Check \ Replace Low water Pressure Switch', Check/Replace pump, Replace summer/winter switch or Check/Replace Timeclock if OK Replace control board -- to be honest I would need a volt meter to clarify, I was hoping the GS engineer would check these things in the call out   

None of these issues are outwith the remit of most fixed-price repairs; my GlowWorm fixed-price equivalent would only have failed to cover the main exchanger (fair do's - that's a biggie) and the expansion vessel - (weird - that's cheap and easy to swap).

What are you inclined to do - repair or replace? If the former, are you considering:  http://www.mrboilerrepairs.co.uk/boiler-repairs/ravenheat-boiler-repairs/

On the other hand, if it's just a pressure switch, that would be a small cost for a good local GasSafe. 

And can I ask what - if any - charge was made by the 'condemning' engineer, because I'd be inclined to give them a tough time if it was anything more than a token sum?

pedram

Just received this email back:

On arrival it was identified that this install that doesn’t meet current standards. The plastic pipe work is actually only not to current standards, but due to the poor installation John inspected it carefully for your safety and decided to upgrade the breach to an ‘At Risk’ as your gas pipes have been ran in voids, not securely fixed, and there is no room thermostat in play, which again is in breach of part L of the building regs, and John could only presume due to all these factors that this appliance has not been fitted by a Gas Safe Registered installation. It has also not been registered. These are pretty serious things.

As we would then be liable as the last gas engineer to be there, we cannot work on an appliance so we strongly recommend you refer these comments back to the installer and report the installation to Gas Safe as it cannot be worked on currently without spending a great deal of money ‘correcting’ the many faults in the installation.

Our professional advice was to replace the appliance in it’s entirety as spending money trying to correct the install and then repair an appliance of this standard is not economically sensible. We as a business would never do that.

As stated in below pipework should be 350mm away from appliance, for clarity see below exert.

 

We acted in the best interest of your safety and within the framework of Gas Safe regulations.

 

BS 5955: Part 8

"CONNECTION TO BOILERS

Speedfit pipe should never be connected directly to a boiler.

Although most modern boilers have a high limit thermostat, residual heat can be conducted by the heat exchanger. Therefore, Speedfit recommend a minimum of 1 metre from the boiler casing should be run in copper pipe unless otherwise stated in the boiler manufacturer's installation literature.

A gravity primary circuit operating on an uncontrolled cooking range or solid fuel boiler should be run entirely in copper and the heating circuit run in copper for the first metre.

Refer to BS 5955: Part 8 for further clarification.

All appliances should have safety devices to make sure they cannot operate above the working temperature and pressure range set out in our Technical Checklist. If safety devices are not incorporated within the appliance then external controls will be needed.

Water meters (and other devices) can contain check valves that prevent the expansion of heated water back down the main supply from a combi boiler. If plastic pipe is to be used, a suitable expansion vessel must be fitted. This is especially important to consider if a water meter is fitted retrospectively. Speedfit do not recommend the use of plastic pipe on the main supply between a water meter and

a combi boiler if an expansion vessel is not fitted.

Speedfit Products should not be fitted to a sealed system oil boiler, a back fired boiler or other uncontrolled heat source."

BS5955-8:2001 states:

"6.4 Boiler or circulator connection

Plastics pipework shall not be connected directly to a boiler or circulator. A transition piece i.e. metal to plastics, shall be used for this purpose and shall be located not less than 350 mm from the connection to the boiler or circulator. Plastics pipes and fittings (PB and PE-X only) can be connected to heat producing appliances, such as boilers, gas circulators and hot water storage cylinders, providing they operate within the limits of the classified service conditions given in BS 7291-1:2001, Table 2, where the malfunction temperature does not exceed 95 C. Plastics pipework shall not be connected directly to a boiler or circulator where the malfunction temperature exceeds 95 C.

COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 6.4. For boilers (gas and oil fired, or electric) with full thermostatic, high limit control and pumped circulation, the method of connection should be as follows.

a) 1) For boilers which do not have a cast iron heat exchanger, direct plastics pipework connections are acceptable, providing the connections are not less than 350 mm from the burner or a greater distance where specified in the burner manufacturer's installation instructions, and not inside the boiler casing.

2) For boilers with a cast iron heat exchanger, metal piping should be used to maintain a distance of not less than 350 mm between the boiler casing and the plastics pipe or fitting, or a greater distance where specified in boiler manufacturer's installation instructions.

3) For back boilers, metal pipework should be used within the fire opening extending out of the chimney brickwork, in addition to 1) and 2).

b) For solid fuel boilers, metal piping should be used to maintain a suitable distance between radiant heat sources and a plastics pipe or fitting. The distances should be in accordance with the pipework manufacturer's recommendations. Plastics piping systems are not recommended for gravity circulation installations (i.e. non-pumped pipework)."

Jeepers_Creepers

That is a masterclass in BS.  Can I ask again, how much have you paid for this visit? 

If next-to-nothing, then let it be. If anything like the £95 I was stiffed for, then it's time to have some fun.

The gas pipe is run in voids? That can certainly be an issue, unless the void is ventilated - ie open at the ends, which is almost certainly the case. In any event, they made no mention of this in their original reason for condemning the boiler.

The rest is double-BS. 

"a) 1) For boilers which do not have a cast iron heat exchanger, direct plastics pipework connections are acceptable, providing the connections are not less than 350 mm from the burner or a greater distance where specified in the burner manufacturer's installation instructions, and not inside the boiler casing."

The Ravenheat's exchanger is made from copper, and lives - like in most boilers - up t'top, well away from the connectors at t'bottom. Betwixt the two lies a number of components such as the diverter valve, P2P exchanger etc, which almost certainly also contain components made largely of plastic. Like most modern boilers, the Ravenheat also has a number of provisions to prevent a malfunction boiler producing in excess of 95oC, and in any case plastic piping can cope with emergency temps and pressures far in excess of this if needed. 

Their actual reasons for condemning the boiler was stated as being: "On arrival found boiler incorrectly fitted with incorrect material, and advised boiler potentially dangerous, and advised not to use Due to manufacture reputation and badly installed will only recommend to change appliance. Gas Warning: At Risk > Pipework issue > pipework in plastic less than 1200mm from appliance."

I'd reply to their original points:

1) How dare you diss' my boiler just cuz it's a Ravenheat. 
2) If that plastic Tee needs shifting down a couple of inches, so be it. Tho' both you and I know that it makes no difference whatsoever to the safe functioning of the boiler. You reckon the way to resolve the 'incorrect material' issue is to replace the whole boiler? Wow. Let's weigh this up - £5 of copper versus a £1k boiler. Hmm...

Your condemning of the boiler was unreasonable, and the 'engineer' seemingly made no attempt to explore what the actual fault was, so left me no better informed after his £x visit; this could have been as cheap and simple a fix as a faulty pressure switch, a job that would probably have landed me a £60 total repair bill. Instead it is very clear that your engineer fancied fitting a completely new boiler - at a cost almost certainly in excess of £2k. Due to the above, I request a refund of £y from your abortive call-out, or I will take this matter further - including on online reviews and social media.