Boiler issues / Pipework illegal.

pedram

Hi All,

Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

Just had a plumber out to fix my boiler - he took one look at it and said it's illegal as I've got plastic pipework 12cm from the boiler. He said he can't touch it until the plastic is replaced with copper and charged me for the call out. He also recommend installing a new boiler - has anyone come across this before?
I don't understand how this install got passed building regs, a property survey report and I also had a British Gas engineer out numerous times who never flagged the issue.

My boiler is a Ravenheat CSI85 (only 6 years old) after turning it on and running the hot water for 10mins the boiler shuts down with a flame failure warning code (solid red).
Pressure looks fine, and checked the radiators for any leaks - speaking with other engineers most laugh when I mention Ravenheat, however I don't fancy shelling out for a boiler when this one isn't that old.

Please help!, thanks in advance.
Ped

theoretica

Who installed it and are they still in business?

pedram

Hi Theoretica,
Thanks for the message, the person who installed it was a building developer (6 years ago) which was before I moved into the flat and I don't have their contact details unfortunately. 

Homer_home

Use that BG engineer you used before and carry on with your life?

nofoollikeold

1. The only slightly dodgy bit of pipework is the central heating pipes, last two on the right:
1a. The flow should be 22 mm pipe, and should ideally be copper, but see below.
1b. The return also should ideally be copper, so that plastic tee would be better in copper.  
2. The Ravenheat installation instructions RECOMMEND that piping for the central; heating circuit be copper.  The instructions do not stipulate that they must be copper.  
3. Did the engineer specify which "law" was being broken?

Mickey666

Just had a plumber out to fix my boiler - he took one look at it and said it's illegal as I've got plastic pipework 12cm from the boiler. He said he can't touch it until the plastic is replaced with copper

Er, if he was a real plumber why didn't he offer to to replace the plastic with copper?

Was he wearing a stetson and arrive on a horse?

pedram

Hi nofoollikeold,
That's really good to know, here's the full comment he left on my receipt:

On arrival found boiler incorrectly fitted with incorrect material, and advised boiler potentially dangerous, and advised not to use Due to manufacture reputation and badly installed will only recommend to change appliance.
Gas Warning: At Risk > Pipework issue > pipework in plastic less than 1200mm from appliance. 

2. Speaking to other plumbers over the phone they also agree - thanks for your advice.
3. No he didn't specify what law was broken 

Most engineers I speak to over the phone - keep mentioning that they wouldn't spend money fixing a Ravenheat and recommend installing a new boiler, the price is coming down a bit now - around £2K for installing a combi boiler, I'm in London btw.

pedram

Hi Mickey666,
Offering to fix the issue would have been nice right  considering they took a call out fee and was there for 10mins only.
Ha might have well been - both of them in fact 

bris

The pipework is a disgrace. Worcester say 1mtr which I think most do but no doubt a cowboy fitted that boiler

I can also see why the engineer ran away as fast as he could, if the installer did that what else did he screw up?

Jeepers_Creepers

pedram said:

Hi All,

Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

Just had a plumber out to fix my boiler - he took one look at it and said it's illegal as I've got plastic pipework 12cm from the boiler. He said he can't touch it until the plastic is replaced with copper and charged me for the call out. He also recommend installing a new boiler - has anyone come across this before?
I don't understand how this install got passed building regs, a property survey report and I also had a British Gas engineer out numerous times who never flagged the issue.

My boiler is a Ravenheat CSI85 (only 6 years old) after turning it on and running the hot water for 10mins the boiler shuts down with a flame failure warning code (solid red).
Pressure looks fine, and checked the radiators for any leaks - speaking with other engineers most laugh when I mention Ravenheat, however I don't fancy shelling out for a boiler when this one isn't that old.

Please help!, thanks in advance.
Ped

Hi Pedram.

The guy who came out to 'fix' your boiler is a smug, pedantic Ravenist. That's my informed-layman's view, so don't quote it in a court of law.

Half the reason he condemned your boiler is due to Ravenheat's 'reputation'. Ok, it ain't brilliant as a quick google suggests, but that's no reason to 'condemn' a 6-year old boiler - just 'cos of its label.

The other reason was due to the use plastic pipe too close to the boiler. As I understand it, these restrictions were originally put in place due to the possibility of the boiler's fabric being at a higher temp than the water it supplies, so any pipe connected to it could be subjected to these higher temps, higher than water temp; copper wouldn't melt, but plastic 'could'. I recall the days of solid-fuel stoves whose boiler casings and bodies could become shimmeringly hot, so - fair do's - I wouldn't want plastic pipe connected to that.

But modern boilers already contain numerous plastic components, and are designed to never exceed around 95oC, and that would only be inside the burner, and nowhere else. By the time you get to the pipe connectors underneath, you are talking around 80-oddoC MAX for the CH and around 65oC for the DHW.

Plastic pipes are designed to cope with this easily - 95oC at 6 bar (way beyond when the boiler would have blown its safety release valve) and even manage superheated water (above 100oC) for short durations. So basically by the time these pipes would have 'melted', you'd have much bigger issues - like your house going up in flames.

From what I can see, the two CH pipes must surely be the two 22mm copper ones - 3rd from left and the fully-rh side ones? In which case there is nothing 'wrong' with that; the plastic Tee on the RH pipe ain't going to cause any issues in practice - that's the 'return' so will typically be at no more than 60-odd oC. If that fitting goes over 100oC, then your house is on fire. 

The 15mm plastic pipe to its left (joined by the flexi) is the cold mains water inlet. If that reaches 100oC, it's because the world has ended and the Sun has become a White Giant. Ie - we have much bigger issues.

The white 15mm in the middle is the DHW supply. If that hits anywhere close to 100oC, check your bathroom - you have just shredded the skin off your children. 

I recommend you get another unbiased GasSafe out to sort whatever the fault is, and chances are they won't give the 'plastic' a second glance. 

I think that - more than - half the issue here is that it's a Ravenheat and they simply expect it to keep causing problems. Which could well be true. However, if money is tight then get someone out to quote for repairing the one you have, and not be an a-ole. 

Mickey666

Jeepers_Creepers said:

I recommend you get another unbiased GasSafe out to sort whatever the fault is, and chances are they won't give the 'plastic' a second glance. 

I think that - more than - half the issue here is that it's a Ravenheat and they simply expect it to keep causing problems.

Perhaps Ravenheat could recommend a plumber (or a list of them) who would not be so biased against the boiler itself?