Popla appeal for overstay

1505grandad

"The BPA Code of Practice (13.2) states that parking operators "should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action." The signage is within the car park and past the point where the ANPR camera has captured an entry time and therefore a grace period should be given to read the additional sign and decide whether to adhere to the terms of the contract or leave the car park."

Parking event I believe happened after Jan 2020 so you should be quoting from BPA CoP V8 dated Jan 2020  -  obviously amend all other reference to BPA CoP by using V8  (I think you are using V7)

"The Notice to Keeper from ParkingEye, only states:"   what has ParkingEye to do with it?

Coupon-mad

The quotes here don't sound like the one we normally use, this is too much waffle and nothing that POPLA will read:

“The customer finds that she only has change of a pound coin and a fifty pence piece and puts these into the pay and display ticket machine. The machine meter records the coins as they are fed into the machine, starting with the pound coin. When the fifty pence piece has been inserted and accepted by the machine, the machine flashes up ‘press green button for ticket’ which the customer does. The amount paid is printed on her ticket, as is the expiry time of one hour later. The customer displays the ticket in her car and leaves the car park.”….

“The ticket issued to a customer states the full amount paid, including any overpayment. There are no barriers at a car park of this type and a customer could press a red button to cancel the transaction at any time until the green button is pressed for the issue of a ticket and drive away without paying anything.”…

“The payment, or promise to pay is not a precondition for the acquisition of the service. In the present case, the money must be paid to NCP before the right to park your car can be acquired.” 

Normally we quote the Judges saying that the contract for parking only commences when money has been inserted into the machine and green button has been pressed.   It is in there.

Don't bother at all with your #5.  ANPR cases don't need images of the car parked.

Entrance signs never have to detail the grace period (nor do any signs have to tell you that, astonishingly).

You have no chance arguing grace periods for an overstay of 28 minutes!  You told us 13 mins, but it's 28 and you will not win with that argument so cut that out too, POPLA won't care that a pregnant lady needed the loo - a further payment should have been made or the car should have left the car park.

I am not saying you might not win on other points such as no landowner authority but I am saying, don't try grace periods nor #5.

helpjack

That's the whole point though. We had no idea it was 28 mins. The first point at which we got a time reference for car park was on purchasing the ticket. I had no idea it had been that long getting a space and a ticket. We went by the time on the ticket. How can it not be a valid point that the are saying the clock starts ticking the moment the car enters the car park. Saying we should have just bought another ticket doesn't work because I don't have magic powers to know what time they are recording us from.

Anyway, with reference to the pregnant lady. They are no longer pregnant and we are all pretty exhausted and emotional so is there any point continuing although I really cant afford £100 with another mouth to feed

helpjack

Ok, I have made the amendments are suggested and will submit and see what happens 

Coupon-mad

helpjack said:

That's the whole point though. We had no idea it was 28 mins. The first point at which we got a time reference for car park was on purchasing the ticket. I had no idea it had been that long getting a space and a ticket. We went by the time on the ticket. How can it not be a valid point that the are saying the clock starts ticking the moment the car enters the car park. Saying we should have just bought another ticket doesn't work because I don't have magic powers to know what time they are recording us from.

Anyway, with reference to the pregnant lady. They are no longer pregnant and we are all pretty exhausted and emotional so is there any point continuing although I really cant afford £100 with another mouth to feed

We agree with you and I wasn't telling you to PAY the scam!  You'd win in court.  You just might not win at POPLA (so what).

AND - CHANNEL YOUR ANGER ABOUT THIS, YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT.  

YOU NEEDED CERTAINTY OF THE TIME OF ARRIVAL.

Please now make a real difference because not enough people have yet, and time is running out.

An urgent task – deadline approaching in about ten days:

The Government is consulting for just a few more days, about a new statutory code of practice (CoP) and framework to rein in the rogue parking firms.  Read and comment on the draft CoP proposal and the enforcement framework consultation, and get everyone you know to do the same.

You will need to register then log in, to comment on the CoP and enter an occupation even if you are retired or a homemaker.  Submit comments as soon as you are happy with them.

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2020-00193#/section

You do not need to register to comment on the enforcement framework which can be found here. It has a link on page 5 to make comments.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/913272/Code_Enforcement_Framework_consultation.pdf

HOW TO DO THE SUBMISSIONS:

1. Read the cover letter

2. Read the cover letter again and note the suggested extra questions...and if you agree that, say, the 'loading/unloading and dropping off, asking for directions, and disabled people parking on double yellows as they can on street' activities listed should be exempt (not parking events, what do you think?) then please go to the Annexes at the end of the PAS Code and find the one about Exempt Vehicles and state what other activity you think should be added to the exempt list.  

 

If you do nothing else, please comment on:

- the amount of the parking charge levels

- the annexes at the end of the PAS (reading through the whole thing takes hours so if you have nothing to say about the definitions, for example, then skip to more vital points and the annex tables at the end.

- the bit about debt collectors and whether you think PPCs should be allowed to add 'costs' a second time, for the letters that are already within the rationale of the 'parking charge' sum...hmmm...

Responses into the PAS 232 and MHCLG framework documents are not completely straightforward:

On the MHCLG response, you have to answer the questions on a 1-5 scale from strongly agree to strongly disagree, and then put some commentary. No way to upload documents or alternatives but this doesn't take long.

 

 On the PAS 232, you have to click on each clause and sub-clause to put your comments, and a suggested rewording of their draft.  You can see comments which other people have written!   But, when you click ‘submit’, a message pops up to say your comments have been received, but that only applies to the particular clause you have just addressed.  

You have to go back up and find the next section, then the next...

You have to click ‘submit’ separately for each individual clause response.  Some people will be caught out by this but can revisit it and add further responses up to 12 October.

 

Things to think about:

A Speeding fine is £100.  A Local Authority lower rate parking penalty is £50.  Which do you think a private PCN should be like or do you think it should be something different?  

Do you think if all payment methods are not functioning that PPC can 'fine' you?

 

Do you think the examples mentioned in the cover letter are right and need adding to the Annex?

 

etc. etc.

 

 

helpjack

Thanks. I'll have a look. I have plenty of long nights to fill at the moment so will log in and have a look  🙂 

Coupon-mad

Here's some more tips, a list of the MHCLG questions and a thread link at the bottom, talking about the PAS webpages and issues with it:

BSI PAS 232 – COMMENTING ON THE CODE OF PRACTICE AS DRAFTED:

1.    You will need to register then log in, to comment on the CoP and enter an occupation even if you are retired or a homemaker.  

 

2.    Register, log into the BSI page, and download & read the cover letter here:

https://standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com/projects/2020-00193#/section

 

3.    Read the cover letter again and note the suggested extra questions... if you agree that, say, the 'loading/unloading and dropping off, asking for directions, and disabled people parking on double yellows as they can on street' activities listed should be exempt (not parking events, what do you think?) then please go to the Annexes at the end of the PAS Code and find the one about Exempt Vehicles and state what other activity you think should be added to the exempt list. 

 

4.    Download the PAS itself and start commenting on what you wish to say something about.  Quick links to each section appear on the left of your page. 

 

You don’t have to comment on everything, e.g. you might want to skip the definitions and focus on later sections, and certainly look at the Annex tables at the end that show things like consideration & grace periods and exemptions.

 

5.    Submit comments when you are happy with them. Don’t just ‘SAVE’ and forget!

 

THAT IS HALF THE JOB DONE!

THE MHCLG CONSULTATION IS EASIER AS IT IS JUST A LIST OF QUESTIONS. 

 

6.    You can do it first if preferred or pushed for time:

https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=EGg0v32c3kOociSi7zmVqAVPfAOtwRxLhHRwQ610oElUMzhQSVo0WUQ4SERVSEZaUU9DTUhFQ1VMUy4u

If your answers exceed 4000 characters (approx. 500 words to a single question or 16000 words (approx. 2500 words) for all the questions below, you can email your answers to parking@communities.gov.uk as long as you state who you are.

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS YOU WILL SEE, FOR RESPONSES TO THE FRAMEWORK:

Q1 Do you agree or disagree that members of APAs should be required to use a single appeals service appointed by the Secretary of State?

Strongly agree/Somewhat agree/Neither agree nor disagree/Somewhat disagree/Strongly disagree

 

Q1.1 Please explain your answer

(free text)

 

 

Q2 Please provide any other feedback on the determination of appeals, including the funding model and features that an appeal service should offer e.g. telephone or in-person hearings, the ability to submit evidence online

(free text)

 

Q3 Please provide any comments you have on the proposal to enforce the Code by combining the ATA’s existing audit procedures with additional safeguards.

(free text)

 

Q4 Please outline any alternative means by which the Code could be monitored and enforced. You may wish to cite evidence from other regulatory frameworks which are relevant.

(free text)

 

Q5 Please provide any feedback you have on the proposed governance arrangements for monitoring the new Code of Practice

(free text)

 

Q6 Which parking charge system is most appropriate for private parking?

 a) the Three-tiered system

 b) Mirroring the Local Authority system

(free text)

 

 Q6.1 Please explain your answer. You may, for example, wish to make reference to other deterrent frameworks (for example, for railway tickets or traffic violations)

(free text)

 

 

Q7 What level of discount is appropriate:

40% as is currently offered in private parking and suggested in the three-tiered system, or

50% as is offered in Local Authority parking?

a) 40%

b) 50%

 

Q7.1 Please explain your answer, including whether the discount should be set at a different level

(free text)

 

 

 Q8 How should the level of parking charges be set and how should the levels be revised in future?

(free text)

 

 

Q9 Do you agree or disagree in principle with the idea of the Appeals Charter?

Agree/Disagree

 

Q9.1 Please explain your answer

(free text)

 

 

Q10 Do you agree or not that the examples given in the Appeals Charter are fair and appropriate? Agree/Disagree

 

Q10.1 Please explain your answer.

You may wish, for example, to suggest additional cases to be covered in an Appeals Charter or query existing examples.

(free text)

 

Q11 Do you agree or disagree that the parking industry should contribute towards the cost of the regulation?

Agree/Disagree

 

Q11.1 Please explain your answer.

(free text)

 

YOU CAN INSTEAD GIVE MORE CONCISE ANSWERS ONLINE, USING THE MHCLG PAGE LINK.

Don’t forget that answering these questions is the easier bit…

Looking at the BSI PAS (the draft code of practice itself) involves logging in and submitting comments again, and again and again and takes more time!

There is a discussion about PAS submissions and what the pages look like, here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6195417/am-i-doing-something-wrong/p1

 

helpjack

Hello,
A quick update. Future Parking have responded to the appeal at POPLA. They have provided a map of signage, a witness statement, 3 pictures of signs and one of the pay and display machine, plus copies of the documentation so far. They have have also provided the following statement:

The Funfair Car Park operates on an ANPR basis for all car park users, this does include blue badge holders. The ANPR cameras picks up the vehicle registration entering and exiting the car park. This then calculates the amount of time spent in the car park. This is clearly stated on the signage located throughout. Future Parking Ltd provide a 10 minute ‘grace period’ which provides the opportunity for the driver to read the signage terms and conditions and decide if they wish to continue parking within the Rattler car park, if not then this gives them reasonable time to leave. As stated in the BPA Code of Practice: 13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice. 13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action. As stated above, as the Fun-Fair car park is small, 10 minutes is enough time for the driver to check the signage in the car park and at the entrance therefore we have complied with the BPA Code of practice as a reasonable grace period has been provided. Contracts are confidential therefore we will not provide this. The BPA have confirmed that Witness Statements are acceptable and have approved ours. Please find this attached confirming that we have the landowner’s authorisation to manage this car park on their behalf and issue parking charge notices. As the vehicle did not pay for parking, the parking charge notice was correctly issued. The legal basis of the Parking Charge Notice is based on the contract entered by drivers who park on private land. The terms and conditions upon which the contract is based is clearly stated on all signage located throughout the car park. When parking on private land the motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions for parking in return for permission to park, it is the motorists responsibility to ensure they abide by any clearly displayed conditions for parking. Future Parking Ltd are a fully approved member of the British Parking Association and as such abide by all current legislation and regulations with regards to parking on private land. The vehicle was in the car park for the duration of 2 Hours and 28 Minutes. Please see attached records showing that no payment was made for the extra 28 Minutes. Note that we give a 10 minute grace period to allow drivers to enter and leave the car park. As the vehicle has failed to pay for the duration of stay the Parking Charge Notice was issued correctly.

I have drafted the following rebuttal:

1. The operator has not provided clear evidence they have landowner authority. A witness statement has been provided instead of the contract itself. The witness statement is not signed by the landowner as per BPA Code of practice 22.16b and therefore it is not a valid witness statement according to the code of practice. The witness statement is from 2018. There is no evidence the contract is currently in place.

2. The operator has provided a map of alleged signage in the car par park but no evidence or pictures of that signage in place. Three photos of signs have been provided but the pictures are very close up and not in context. No pictures of the signage in place and from the car park perspective have been provided. The operator has failed to prove that the signage is prominent and clear from all parking spaces.

3. The operator has failed to prove they uphold the minimum grace periods set out in the BPA Code of Practice. As stated in the operator’s response, they record users from the moment they enter the car park and finish recording from when they leave and allow a total grace period of 10 minutes for both ingress and egress. However,  the BPA Code of Practice (13.3) states that the parking operators “Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN”. Additional time is permitted on entering the car park as observation time as (13.1) states that parking operators "The driver must have the chance to consider the Terms and Conditions before entering into the ‘parking contract’. If, having had that opportunity, the driver decides not to park but chooses to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable consideration period to leave, before the driver can be bound by your parking contract." The size of the car park is irrelevant in this case as stated in the appeal actually causes delay to users as users can blocked and delayed by other drivers and roadworks on the narrow egress and ingress which is the same entrance. There is no alternative entrance or one way system for users causing delays and blockages on busy days.

4. The operator has not established keeper liability

Coupon-mad

I make that 2518 characters which is far too much - see the NEWBIES thread post #3 about POPLA comments stage.

MistyZ

So easy to get this down to 2000 characters or less.  

E.g. 1. 'FP have NOT provided clear evidence of landowner authority.  They provided witness statement instead of contract. ...... (etc.)

Keep it clear, cover everything, but don't bother with a very formal way of writing.  Use abbreviations where possible.