made redundant by company who doesnt have control of my current employment !

pogba1234

i was after guidance from people on the legality of being made redundant by a company who doesnt actually have official control and is currently not  my employer.
i work for coop insurance who is proposing to transfer some of its business to markerstudy , but it has to await FCO approval to allow this.During this time markerstudy have advised they do not recognise my current union at coop and have commenced the redundancy process , they now wish for my appeal to take place whilst still having no offical control of the business.
i would have expected the normal procedure to be that they would commence the redundancy process once they have control , BUT this is a way of them saving money as the consulting process is being funded by my current employer ( COOP).
It also seems unfair to have potentially relationship damaging discussions with your bosses , when the deal may not be approved and it goes back to business as usual.
Further i am in complete abeyance on when i will be made redundant and it isnt good for you mental health as the approval keeps being pushed back.

Any thoughts on the legality of this - many thanks 

August 2020

Dear Colleague

Re: Support Adviser

In the joint CFSMS and Markerstudy colleague announcement on the 8th July 2020 and subsequent

departmental briefings, Markerstudy advised that as a result of the planned transfer of the services

currently provided by Co-Op Insurance (CFSMS) to Markerstudy Insurance Services Ltd (“MISL”) and

Affinity Insurance Solutions Ltd (“AISL”), Markerstudy were proposing to make redundancies as a result of

the transfer.

Regrettably, our subsequent letter to you confirmed that your role was at risk of redundancy. We

explained that collective consultation in relation to the proposed redundancies commenced on the 3

rd July 2020 with an anticipated end date of mid-August. However, as these proposals remain subject to PRA

and FCA approval, consultation will continue until we receive confirmation of this.

Following both the collective and individual consultation with colleagues in relation to these proposals, I

am sorry to inform you have been provisionally selected to be dismissed by reason of redundancy

following transfer to Markerstudy. The date for termination of employment will however be deferred in line

with our recent discussions, and is not likely to be until Claim migration.

Unfortunately, until we receive confirmation from PRA and change of control/completion we are not able

to provide you with formal notice or an exact date of termination of employment. We will update you as

soon as we have more information and provide the relevant details of your final payments and any

applicable notice period, which will be dependent on the termination date.

You do have the right to appeal against the decision to select you for redundancy. This would normally

be once you have received formal notification of termination of employment. However, as we have been

pre-consulting prior to transfer, if you wish to submit an appeal please do so in writing clearly stating your

grounds of appeal within 5 days of receipt of this letter to Appeals@markerstudy.com

If you have any further queries or concerns, do please speak to me or email

msgcooptransfer@markerstudy.com

The organisation appreciates your understanding during what has been a difficult time for all concerned.

Yours sincerely

Juliette100

A business can look to make redundancies pre or post a TUPE but if it is tied to the TUPE (transfer) itself then this will automatically be unfair.   If your current employer is wanting to remove your role that is fine and if your new employer wants to remove this role due to an Economic, Technical or Organizational reason ONLY then that is fine but if this process is starting because of the fact you are transferring then this is unfair and you would have a right to raise a grievance about this.    

pogba1234

Juliette100 said:

A business can look to make redundancies pre or post a TUPE but if it is tied to the TUPE (transfer) itself then this will automatically be unfair.   If your current employer is wanting to remove your role that is fine and if your new employer wants to remove this role due to an Economic, Technical or Organizational reason ONLY then that is fine but if this process is starting because of the fact you are transferring then this is unfair and you would have a right to raise a grievance about this.    

Thanks Juliette ,
They want a zoom meeting Friday to hear my appeal , they advised i was being made redundant as my department does not exist in the new company. They even in the letter above advise the redundancy is due to the transfer of business.
Do you recommend mentioning TUPE during the meeting. They advise they cant officially put the redundancy in writing or advise the date of redundancy yet which all seems rather odd.

getmore4less

Get your union to represent you on an individual basis if they won't accept collective. 

Juliette100

Yes you need to question tupe as that is what they have said it is. And under tupe they cannot dismiss you due to the transfer itself.   If your dept doesn’t exist in the new business the new business needs to manage this once they take over and you transfer.    If you are to be made redundant they would need to document that with date. But in your appeal be accompanied and ask for the minutes of the meeting. Inform them you wish to review the minutes after the appeal as these are important. If you are part of a union involve them as it’s important to be accompanied in this meeting rather than go it alone 

Juliette100

I should add it is not unusual for the new owners not to want all the staff.  The new managers may make it a condition of taking over the business, either formally or informally, that the current managers dismiss employees as redundant before the transfer or both groups work together to reach this end which seems to be the case here. 

Thus, tribunals will probably deem the TUPE transfer as the sole or principal reason for such dismissals, and determine 

• There is no “ecomonic, technical or organisational” defence;
• The dismissals are automatically unfair.

Redundancies before the TUPE transfer can be an economic necessity and a valid defence – for example needed to  keep the business trading but if there has to be genuine ETO reason it tends to be fraught with issues especially pre transfer.  Your document seems to imply this is merely due to the transfer so I think they have said it all.  Good luck! 

pogba1234

well the inevitable has happened and i have been formerly advised i am redundant , 
on reading up on the subject of tupe -am i correct in believing  the correct procedure is that the new company should pool all the transfering cis staff and markerstudy and then make redundancies if it is due to economic reasons.
also if i was lucky enough to win an automatically unfair dismissal case what payout would i reasonably expect - the reason i ask is that my acas claim is asking what sum of money i would accept to settle the case 
--would i be wasting good money getting the help of a solicitor
many thanks for your assistance

Thrugelmir

pogba1234 said:

on reading up on the subject of tupe -am i correct in believing  the correct procedure is that the new company should pool all the transfering cis staff and markerstudy and then make redundancies if it is due to economic reasons.

Would be unmanageable to combine and integrate an acquired business while restructuring the entire organisation. The new management have no ability to assess each individual fairly either. Which would in itself would result in an uneconomic use of resources. There'll be entire teams/departments which will be dispensed with during the takeover process. 

Andy_L

How long have you worked there?

pogba1234

Andy_L said:

How long have you worked there?

14 years , 

marlot

pogba1234 said:

well the inevitable has happened and i have been formerly advised i am redundant , 
on reading up on the subject of tupe -am i correct in believing  the correct procedure is that the new company should pool all the transfering cis staff and markerstudy and then make redundancies if it is due to economic reasons.
also if i was lucky enough to win an automatically unfair dismissal case what payout would i reasonably expect - the reason i ask is that my acas claim is asking what sum of money i would accept to settle the case 
--would i be wasting good money getting the help of a solicitor
many thanks for your assistance

Did your union rep come to the meeting?
They may well support the appeal.