Does anyone remember when the UK had an economy worth investing in?

Sebo027

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

dunstonh said:

CreditCardChris said:

Just had a quick peak at the FTSE 100 performance in relation to the SPX performance. 


I wonder how long before the UK becomes a second world economy, the likes of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania etc come to mind. The UK leaving the EU could actually end of being one of the best decisions for the EU as we have the real chance of ending up a "burden state", where we take more than we contribute so us leaving will probably be a godsend for Europe come 20 years time.

Imagine still claiming to be one of the best economies in the world when it's propped up on dinosaur companies that dominate sectors and have not innovated at all in the last 50 years. Perhaps if Prime Ministers and MPs were not so concerned with lining their own pockets they'd make our lack of economic growth a national emergency and do something about it.
 

The FTSE100 has been a dire performer for 25+ years.  One of the worst there is.   This is in part due to its dividend bias which does harm the UK economy.   However, for investors, the mid and small caps are where the value is for the UK.
The UK economy is not reflected in the FTSE100.
You have been told this in multiple threads before but it doesn't appear to have sunk in yet.

How's this then https://i.gyazo.com/2402f897fe8da37cfbfe028cd4f5c4d8.png

FTSE 250 performance compared to SPX performance, it's not much better. 

Using the same scale on that chart, 2008 until 2020, the FTSE 250 has performed roughly in line with the S&P 500 - both have returned around 200% until January this year. Of course then the S&P has gone up a bit more down to a handful of tech companies and the FTSE 250 has not yet recovered after the crash.

That doesn't make the FTSE 250 a bad investment - it has kept up and sometimes beaten most other indexes over the long term.

FTSE 250 is up 45.82% since the top of the 2008 crash.
SPX is up 123% in the same period, a difference of 77.18%

Not quite sure what chart you're looking at. Anyway my argument isn't really about stock market performance as such, it's about economic growth. I'd love for all the old gas and oil, mining, insurance and banking stocks to be moved over to the "this is where money goes to die" index and make way for some up and coming companies. Ocado is doing good things but struggling to go international for some very strange reason. Meanwhile Uber, airbnb etc manages worldwide integration just fine.

Sounds like the UK government regulation is standing in the way of some companies expanding? Maybe it's time to flush the government and make a new one? One that actually supports and helps companies go global? I hate to use a Trump phrase but maybe it's time we drain our own swamp.

The return on the FTSE 250 from 1/1/2008 until 1/1/2020 was around 190%. You need to stop pulling random charts off the internet and start looking at the real data. Try Trustnet.

Why do you think Ocado is struggling internationally? I thought it sold its software across the globe?
Maybe the oil and gas companies of yesterday will become the green energy and battery companies of the future? We can only hope.

I'm not pulling random charts... Look for yourself 

FTSE 250 index tracker https://i.gyazo.com/4322e78da4d97b1a6eff12d71d933727.png 45.8% since 2008 highs
SPX Index https://i.gyazo.com/47cad62ee941d58824ebb5e04e710df7.png 123% since 2008 highs.

Ocado selling their software isn't expansion, they're basically selling their service which American companies will use to start their own Ocados. Instead of physical Ocado vans driving around in America delivering. Ocado are forced to sell their software because they cannot expand physically because of UK regulation. 
It is notoriously difficult for UK companies to expand abroad because the UK government is generally against this prospect and wants to keep everything in house under lock and key. 

Haha I like your jokes... Oil companies will lose the fight to become green, companies like Tesla already leading the charge and oil companies have tens of billions invested in oil production, they just don't have the money to do a complete flip into green solutions, they'll go bankrupt! But they're heading that way anyways. Also oil, insurance, mining, banking etc is ruled by 60 year old men who only know the old ways... It takes a young Elon or a Young Jeff to revolutionise an industry, these 60 year old men have no chance.

As I understand it in the coming decade, despite a massive PR push to rebrand themselves as more well balanced energy suppliers, most major oil and gas producers will focus predominantly on gas extraction and distribution to meet rising global demand. BP has halved it's dividend to help fund it's new ventures, Total has already made good progress without cutting the dividend. I imagine most majors will look to sniff out smaller flourishing companies with promise in the sector and buy them. 

But generally speaking, to your point about the state of the UK economy, I think there is an opinion that the UK isn't as friendly to budding entrepreneurs in the same way that the US is, but then again we don't have the same deregulated, heartless society either. 

CreditCardChris

societys_child said:

CreditCardChris . . .

Whatever you plan investing in, stop it. stick with your credit card. Seriously, you'll never succeed.

I'm already succeeding, the vanguard global all cap is doing me good.

CreditCardChris

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

dunstonh said:

CreditCardChris said:

Just had a quick peak at the FTSE 100 performance in relation to the SPX performance. 


I wonder how long before the UK becomes a second world economy, the likes of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania etc come to mind. The UK leaving the EU could actually end of being one of the best decisions for the EU as we have the real chance of ending up a "burden state", where we take more than we contribute so us leaving will probably be a godsend for Europe come 20 years time.

Imagine still claiming to be one of the best economies in the world when it's propped up on dinosaur companies that dominate sectors and have not innovated at all in the last 50 years. Perhaps if Prime Ministers and MPs were not so concerned with lining their own pockets they'd make our lack of economic growth a national emergency and do something about it.
 

The FTSE100 has been a dire performer for 25+ years.  One of the worst there is.   This is in part due to its dividend bias which does harm the UK economy.   However, for investors, the mid and small caps are where the value is for the UK.
The UK economy is not reflected in the FTSE100.
You have been told this in multiple threads before but it doesn't appear to have sunk in yet.

How's this then https://i.gyazo.com/2402f897fe8da37cfbfe028cd4f5c4d8.png

FTSE 250 performance compared to SPX performance, it's not much better. 

Using the same scale on that chart, 2008 until 2020, the FTSE 250 has performed roughly in line with the S&P 500 - both have returned around 200% until January this year. Of course then the S&P has gone up a bit more down to a handful of tech companies and the FTSE 250 has not yet recovered after the crash.

That doesn't make the FTSE 250 a bad investment - it has kept up and sometimes beaten most other indexes over the long term.

FTSE 250 is up 45.82% since the top of the 2008 crash.
SPX is up 123% in the same period, a difference of 77.18%

Not quite sure what chart you're looking at. Anyway my argument isn't really about stock market performance as such, it's about economic growth. I'd love for all the old gas and oil, mining, insurance and banking stocks to be moved over to the "this is where money goes to die" index and make way for some up and coming companies. Ocado is doing good things but struggling to go international for some very strange reason. Meanwhile Uber, airbnb etc manages worldwide integration just fine.

Sounds like the UK government regulation is standing in the way of some companies expanding? Maybe it's time to flush the government and make a new one? One that actually supports and helps companies go global? I hate to use a Trump phrase but maybe it's time we drain our own swamp.

The return on the FTSE 250 from 1/1/2008 until 1/1/2020 was around 190%. You need to stop pulling random charts off the internet and start looking at the real data. Try Trustnet.

Why do you think Ocado is struggling internationally? I thought it sold its software across the globe?
Maybe the oil and gas companies of yesterday will become the green energy and battery companies of the future? We can only hope.

I'm not pulling random charts... Look for yourself 

FTSE 250 index tracker https://i.gyazo.com/4322e78da4d97b1a6eff12d71d933727.png 45.8% since 2008 highs
SPX Index https://i.gyazo.com/47cad62ee941d58824ebb5e04e710df7.png 123% since 2008 highs.

Ocado selling their software isn't expansion, they're basically selling their service which American companies will use to start their own Ocados. Instead of physical Ocado vans driving around in America delivering. Ocado are forced to sell their software because they cannot expand physically because of UK regulation. 
It is notoriously difficult for UK companies to expand abroad because the UK government is generally against this prospect and wants to keep everything in house under lock and key. 

Haha I like your jokes... Oil companies will lose the fight to become green, companies like Tesla already leading the charge and oil companies have tens of billions invested in oil production, they just don't have the money to do a complete flip into green solutions, they'll go bankrupt! But they're heading that way anyways. Also oil, insurance, mining, banking etc is ruled by 60 year old men who only know the old ways... It takes a young Elon or a Young Jeff to revolutionise an industry, these 60 year old men have no chance.

If you are going to do a comparison you need to display total return charts... those ones of yours are irrelevant. 

Are you sure that Ocado actually want to be a global food retailer rather than a software platform and licenser? 

I was kind of joking about BP and Shell but you never know. You should see some new tech companies appearing on the main markets over the next few years. The Hut Group IPOs in a few weeks, then you have Transferwise. Quite a few UK tech companies are unlisted.

Not to shoot down your post but if these companies don't plan on expanding beyond the UK I'm not investing. I generally don't invest in IPOs anyway because of risk but if they plan on expanding worldwide (like revolut) then I might throw a grand in or something. 

Revolut is basically the only UK company I want to invest in directly because they're expanding worldwide, but revolut is private... Despite having a market cap of £6billion! Why the hell are they still private?! Go public already can us normal folk can get in on some of the growth. 

*edit* Nevermind I Googled them and they're already global which is awesome, a very rare thing indeed. I might toss a grand into each one when they go public then.

Thrugelmir

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

Prism said:

CreditCardChris said:

dunstonh said:

CreditCardChris said:

Just had a quick peak at the FTSE 100 performance in relation to the SPX performance. 


I wonder how long before the UK becomes a second world economy, the likes of Bulgaria, Poland, Romania etc come to mind. The UK leaving the EU could actually end of being one of the best decisions for the EU as we have the real chance of ending up a "burden state", where we take more than we contribute so us leaving will probably be a godsend for Europe come 20 years time.

Imagine still claiming to be one of the best economies in the world when it's propped up on dinosaur companies that dominate sectors and have not innovated at all in the last 50 years. Perhaps if Prime Ministers and MPs were not so concerned with lining their own pockets they'd make our lack of economic growth a national emergency and do something about it.
 

The FTSE100 has been a dire performer for 25+ years.  One of the worst there is.   This is in part due to its dividend bias which does harm the UK economy.   However, for investors, the mid and small caps are where the value is for the UK.
The UK economy is not reflected in the FTSE100.
You have been told this in multiple threads before but it doesn't appear to have sunk in yet.

How's this then https://i.gyazo.com/2402f897fe8da37cfbfe028cd4f5c4d8.png

FTSE 250 performance compared to SPX performance, it's not much better. 

Using the same scale on that chart, 2008 until 2020, the FTSE 250 has performed roughly in line with the S&P 500 - both have returned around 200% until January this year. Of course then the S&P has gone up a bit more down to a handful of tech companies and the FTSE 250 has not yet recovered after the crash.

That doesn't make the FTSE 250 a bad investment - it has kept up and sometimes beaten most other indexes over the long term.

FTSE 250 is up 45.82% since the top of the 2008 crash.
SPX is up 123% in the same period, a difference of 77.18%

Not quite sure what chart you're looking at. Anyway my argument isn't really about stock market performance as such, it's about economic growth. I'd love for all the old gas and oil, mining, insurance and banking stocks to be moved over to the "this is where money goes to die" index and make way for some up and coming companies. Ocado is doing good things but struggling to go international for some very strange reason. Meanwhile Uber, airbnb etc manages worldwide integration just fine.

Sounds like the UK government regulation is standing in the way of some companies expanding? Maybe it's time to flush the government and make a new one? One that actually supports and helps companies go global? I hate to use a Trump phrase but maybe it's time we drain our own swamp.

The return on the FTSE 250 from 1/1/2008 until 1/1/2020 was around 190%. You need to stop pulling random charts off the internet and start looking at the real data. Try Trustnet.

Why do you think Ocado is struggling internationally? I thought it sold its software across the globe?
Maybe the oil and gas companies of yesterday will become the green energy and battery companies of the future? We can only hope.

I'm not pulling random charts... Look for yourself 

FTSE 250 index tracker https://i.gyazo.com/4322e78da4d97b1a6eff12d71d933727.png 45.8% since 2008 highs
SPX Index https://i.gyazo.com/47cad62ee941d58824ebb5e04e710df7.png 123% since 2008 highs.

Ocado selling their software isn't expansion, they're basically selling their service which American companies will use to start their own Ocados. Instead of physical Ocado vans driving around in America delivering. Ocado are forced to sell their software because they cannot expand physically because of UK regulation. 
It is notoriously difficult for UK companies to expand abroad because the UK government is generally against this prospect and wants to keep everything in house under lock and key. 

Haha I like your jokes... Oil companies will lose the fight to become green, companies like Tesla already leading the charge and oil companies have tens of billions invested in oil production, they just don't have the money to do a complete flip into green solutions, they'll go bankrupt! But they're heading that way anyways. Also oil, insurance, mining, banking etc is ruled by 60 year old men who only know the old ways... It takes a young Elon or a Young Jeff to revolutionise an industry, these 60 year old men have no chance.

If you are going to do a comparison you need to display total return charts... those ones of yours are irrelevant. 

Are you sure that Ocado actually want to be a global food retailer rather than a software platform and licenser? 

I was kind of joking about BP and Shell but you never know. You should see some new tech companies appearing on the main markets over the next few years. The Hut Group IPOs in a few weeks, then you have Transferwise. Quite a few UK tech companies are unlisted.

Why the hell are they still private?! 

Number of listed companies has been in decline in the Western markets for some time. Companies no longer need to come to market to raise capital, which is their primary function. Easy enough to raise money privately and not have the cost and hassle of everything that goes with a market listing. 

CreditCardChris

Thrugelmir said:

 the hell are they still private?! 

Number of listed companies has been in decline in the Western markets for some time. Companies no longer need to come to market to raise capital, which is their primary function. Easy enough to raise money privately and not have the cost and hassle of everything that goes with a market listing. 

Just another reason why investing in broad UK index funds is a terrible idea then. I mean what's the point in buying UK index funds if awesome new companies aren't going public? 
Glad to see some UK companies like Transferwise and The Hut Group have plucked up the courage to go public though. I think the UK government should set a limit on how much private funds can be raised, something like 3 rounds of funding then if the company wants more, they HAVE to go to the public market. 

This may seem unfair but it's the only way us normal folk can get in on the growth of these companies. Otherwise all the profit just go into the hands of private investment companies, most of which are always American. 

coachman12

Yet another jolly thread with all the politeness, kindness and ability to respect others' views.
I do not agree with what Chris has to say about the UK markets, but I have no wish to pour vitriol all over the thread just because he has the nerve to put forward his view-----and I do admire the way he has stuck to his guns in the face of what can only be called hatemail.
As for what we are now as a country, as a society ( economic aspects aside )-----which seems to have been raised during this thread----- I think there are some things which are better than in the past and some things which are far worse-----a simple truism.

dunstonh

CreditCardChris said:

Our entire GDP is worth less than two US companies.
Think about that for a second... 

And just think of the scale of the crash that could occur if tech suddenly goes out of fashion.

Thrugelmir

CreditCardChris said:

Thrugelmir said:

 the hell are they still private?! 

Number of listed companies has been in decline in the Western markets for some time. Companies no longer need to come to market to raise capital, which is their primary function. Easy enough to raise money privately and not have the cost and hassle of everything that goes with a market listing. 

This may seem unfair but it's the only way us normal folk can get in on the growth of these companies. Otherwise all the profit just go into the hands of private investment companies, most of which are always American. 

Quoted private equity companies are one option. There's a number dotted around if one goes looking. As was discussed recently there's investment trusts such as SMT, MERC and HRI (as examples).  Neil Woodford was slated for investing in start-ups . Yet by value he was one of largest single investors in the sector in the UK. US buyers have happily bought the bones for a pittance since his demise. 

TBC15

Apple is worth more than the FTSE 100, that’s an interesting point to ponder.

ElephantBoy57

eskbanker said:

....which was the subject of the most recent of the previous threads linked above.  Do you think that repeatedly airing the same grievance is useful?

There is a different section for post about the economy, he should post over there.