Parking ticket received at work/Being taken to Court

aimeeb249

I’m mainly writing this for a second opinion, and any tips, because up until now I have been fighting this charge and researching legal advice alone without any real guidance or understanding which is incredibly stressful.

A short backstory 

In March 2019, I took up a job at a retail store that was based at a retail park. 

Because I live relatively close to the retail park, I was familiar with the parking conditions. 

I already knew it had a maximum stay of 3 hours. However, my scheduled shifts were 6 and a half hours, and so my plan was to arrive very early for my first shift, to enquire about parking exemptions for staff. If there were no exemptions, I’d take my car back home and walk to work instead.

When I arrived the manager did actually ask if I had a vehicle, she said if I did, she could take my details and I’d be made exempt from getting a charge - as all employees of the retailers trading on the retail park do not have the same time limit restrictions as customers  (for obvious reasons).

I informed her I did have a vehicle, and gave her my registration.

I went on to work  six and a half hours on that day (the 16th of March 2019).

I then worked six and a half hours on the next day, the 17th of March 2019, leaving at around 8pm (this was a Sunday).

(I actually quit the job first thing on the third day, with immediate effect, as it came to my knowledge the employer had misrepresented the role responsibilities and the rate of pay, and they were not willing to rectify it. I stayed about half an hour on this day so it isn’t relevant to the case).

And then it began.

I first received a letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd regarding the 17th of March 2019, telling me I had overstayed within the car park of the retail park by 3 hours and some minutes, and that I also had to pay a fine - I was incredibly annoyed, but was 100% sure if I informed my ex-employer, they’d be able to cancel it from their side.

So the next day, I did just that. My now ex-employer said they’d send Civil Enforcement an email and that the charge would be cancelled. I thought this would be the end of it.

A few weeks later I received a second letter stating I had not paid the charge, and still needed to pay. I contacted my ex-employer, who said they had already contacted Civil Enforcement Ltd and there was nothing else that they could do.

The Appeals

So since my employer had washed their hands of it, I decided to appeal it as I had everything to prove I worked there anyway. In my appeal I included: a signed document of the training I had completed on the premises (this was on the date in question), I attached a copy of the payslip I received from the company, and a letter I had managed requested from the HR department confirming the shifts/dates I had worked. I also explained they had only charged me for one out of the two dates, therefore something must have gone wrong on their end, and their database was obviously not reliable! I also mentioned that the date in question was a Sunday, and I couldn’t have been parked there to shop until 8pm, when the stores closed at 4pm! I thought this would have been the end of it.

A few weeks later Civil Enforcement replied, and said they had rejected my appeal because they had no record of my registration on their ‘database’. So I would have to pay them, or go through POPLA. 

I wasn’t going to pay them, so I followed the process for POPLA, supplying the same evidence, and to my surprise, weeks later, received a rejection from POPLA, stating that although he could ‘empathise’ with the circumstances, it was not in his remit to make a judgement on ‘extenuating circumstances’ - I had overstayed, and that was that.

My Health

At this point I was exhausted - I had also since been diagnosed with hypertension and was in and out of hospital; stress naturally causes hypertension to rise and makes any symptoms worse, so the stress these bullies were now causing me was impacting my ability to recover properly. 

The Harassment 

It was from this point (August 2019), that I started being bombarded with letters from debt collectors and solicitors, every other week, essentially threatening me to pay. I ignored these letters because I felt (and still feel) that I did not need to pay & had done nothing wrong!

I was eventually summoned to court by Civil Enforcement Ltd. I decided I would fight the case - and have also counterclaimed for £500, to compensate for stress/time/ill-health. I would have claimed for more but as a struggling student, I couldn’t afford the court fees associated with any counterclaims beyond £500.

The Court Hearing

I have now submitted my witness statement, evidence etc - and the hearing is scheduled for September the 15th via BT Meet. 

This began when I was 19, and I am now 21. I still cannot believe they would be this stubborn! If I was wrong, I would have held my hands up and paid - but I was simply trying to make an honest living at I job which I very much hated, at that.

It’s funny because I made about £37 on the date in question, and Civil Enforcement are now telling me to pay around £300 to them to cover their costs, when they make millions.

So as the court hearing approaches, I wanted to ask a few questions:

Am I going crazy - or I am completely right in defending this parking charge? 

If I win/lose the case, would I get my court fee back that I paid for my counterclaim by any chance?

Based on what I’ve described and my evidence, do you think the judge will see where I’m coming from, or will they just side with Civil Enforcement like POPLA?

I would also like to know how these BT Meet Me hearings work (if anyone has experienced them), as well as any advice on what to say at my hearing.

Apologies for the lengthy post and thanks for any help in advance ☺️

D_P_Dance

From what you have told us, f the PPC are unwise  enough to take this ti cour, they might struggle.  For a counterclaim for stress you will probably need medicak evidencemcas

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies.

Redx

You seem to have a strong sensible case , plus because you have made a counter claim it will go to court afaik , even if cel drop out , although stress and harassment is a pretty high bar and a court can say that chasing an alleged debt is neither. We know that you think it is , but you have to prove your case

If you win , you ask the judge to award costs , including both defending and claiming , so ensure you have submitted a summary costs assessment plus exhibits , not just a witness statement

Post your draft of your defence below , then post your witness statement as well , so we can see what was in them

I assume you are defending as a driver ?? If so then POFA will not help you

If you gave your HR department your VRM to add the vehicle to a whitelist plus asked them to inform cel to cancel the PCN , those factors are out of your control , so frustration of contract , you did what you had to do , relying on third parties to fulfill the parking contract

Plenty of recent threads on here about telephone and video hearings too , read them and read the telephone hearings thread by coupon mad as well

What area of the country are you in ??

Which retail park or store was it ?

How much are cel claiming ?? Give us a breakdown of their figures from the pic etc?

Have they added the double recovery of say £60 ??

If you lose both cases you will get nothing back and the judge will issue a judgment on what you have to pay the claimant within one month

Answer all these questions and more and you should get excellent advice from people here

Read this thread for a court report etc , not same as yours but you get an idea

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6102800/horizon-gladstones-claim-court-this-week#latest

It shows how not all charges and fees were awarded to the claimant , what is not allowed etc, plus how to prepare , do a crib sheet , ensure your summary costs assessment is already with the judge and claimant , do separate ones in your cases , one for defending the claim and one supporting your own claim including your initial fee

The more of the recent ones you read , the better your grasp of everything , but ensure its on paper , emailed to court and claimant beforehand , you cannot ambush on the day

A judge should give you a fair hearing , but unlike popla he can apply common sense and the law , whereas Popla are not tied and cannot rule on issues like yours , as you found out

Coupon-mad

I would also like to know how these BT Meet Me hearings work (if anyone has experienced them), as well as any advice on what to say at my hearing.

Make sure you comply with the Order telling you to give your phone number to the court, days before.

It's just a conference by phone.  You must not record it (illegal).  But you can put it on speakerphone to leave your hands free to sip water and look through your papers.

The court rings both parties.  Make sure your phone is fully charged!  Usually, in my area at least, I find that a Court Usher calls you to test the line an hour before, then calls you again when the Judge is ready, which may not be dead on time. 

 As with all parking case hearings (and you need to read a shedload of them) the Judge should explain what will happen for your benefit, then ask the CEL rep to speak, then you get your turn.

I won a case v CEL using BT Meet Me at a hearing the other week and I posted a court report in the thread by @Old_Bird_65 so read that!  It will tell you what will happen. You do know (surely, we hope, from reading a stack of CEL court claim threads) that the WS by Scott whatisname (ex-Wonga*) is a template - same in every case, with a tiny tweak or two? 

And be aware that they might have withheld the landowner contract from your copy of their WS and bundle.  They can't do that.    Be aware that the landowner authority might be in the WRONG NAME (Creative) not CEL and that this can and should kill their case, if you expose that...

I hope you included evidence with your own WS that you worked there and copies of emails from the retailer saying they wanted the PCNs to be cancelled?  That is vital evidence to support your defence.

* search the forum for Wonga Scott and you will find a thread where I tore his WS apart.

aimeeb249

D_P_Dance said:

From what you have told us, f the PPC are unwise  enough to take this ti cour, they might struggle.  For a counterclaim for stress you will probably need medicak evidencemcas

Thanks for the response! You're certainly right, a claim for stress is quite contentious and hard to prove. I did reach out to my practice regarding a letter from my GP about my condition, the stress I reported and the subsequent prescriptions I received but they told me it would take weeks for them to arrange it because they are extremely busy. I don't really have the time to wait due to the deadline being the 1st of September, I understand they are under pressure given the current circumstances so I didn't want to be difficult about it. I have included photographic evidence of my prescriptions, my medications, and descriptions regarding the reason for the medication in my exhibits...I'm aware it's not the strongest evidence for stress/worsened health as a result of CEL's pursuit , but it's unfortunately all I could provide.

I will also reach out to my MP - hopefully with enough pressure they'll someday enforce some changes and regulations to these companies.

Umkomaas

I think your best hope is that CEL don't challenge the counterclaim, then you'll get what they strive for in all their roboclaims against motorists, uncontested proceedings, and a judgment in default. The worm turneth ...... but more to hope for, rather than something to bank on. 

aimeeb249

What area of the country are you in ??

Which retail park or store was it ?

How much are cel claiming ?? Give us a breakdown of their figures from the pic etc?

 Thank you Redx, appreciate you taking the time to read over it and I appreciate the feedback.

I have included a summary costs assessment and exhibits alongside my witness statement, so hopefully they’ll be up to standard.

& yes, I am defending as the driver 😊

I am in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire.

The Retail Park is called Leeds Road Retail Park, and it is also in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire. 

The specific store was Home Bargains.

My defence was submitted on MCOL (I’ve since found out through this forum that I did not have to send it this way) – I did save it on my old laptop, but it since broke a few months ago. So I don’t have a copy of it anymore, it’s basically along the lines of my Witness Statement though, which I have attached.

My Witness Statement is probably not that good, and seems a bit too informal/rambly, but I found this forum after I had already winged it and sent it off unfortunately. Hopefully the general gist of it will be okay in the end.

I’ve also included a breakdown of the figures that they mentioned to me in their Witness Statement, although in the actual e-mail they sent me, the total amount was different. I’ve attached an extract from that e-mail too:

& I’ll take a look over the thread you linked tonight, thank you very much again!

aimeeb249

And be aware that they might have withheld the landowner contract from your copy of their WS and bundle.  They can't do that.    Be aware that the landowner authority might be in the WRONG NAME (Creative) not CEL and that this can and should kill their case, if you expose that...

Thanks for the response Coupon-mad!

I'll look over the court report within the thread you mentioned tonight, thank you! From what you've explained, it seems fairly straightforward so hopefully it will go smoothly. And yes, I submitted my contact details to them via e-mail within the time frame they gave me in the letter.

Upon looking it does indeed seem they withheld the landowner contract from my copy of their WS and bundle - I've already submitted my WS but I will definitely mention that in the hearing - I do suspect it's probably under the Creative Car Park too. No surprises there.

I included evidence of my employment, and I did request copies from the retailer months ago, before the whole thing had even reached this stage, but they refused, at the time I let it go because I didn't expect POPLA would have rejected my appeal (big mistake haha).

aimeeb249

Umkomaas said:

I think your best hope is that CEL don't challenge the counterclaim, then you'll get what they strive for in all their roboclaims against motorists, uncontested proceedings, and a judgment in default. The worm turneth ...... but more to hope for, rather than something to bank on. 

Thanks Umkomaas, I certainly agree with you! Wouldn't be surprised if they did, but time will surely tell.

KeithP

My defence was submitted on MCOL (I’ve since found out through this forum that I did not have to send it this way) – I did save it on my old laptop, but it since broke a few months ago. So I don’t have a copy of it anymore, it’s basically along the lines of my Witness Statement though, which I have attached.

I think I would be asking the hearing court if they could possibly send you a copy of your Defence.
Phone them and follow it up with an email.

That is an important document and you may be somewhat hampered without a copy of it.

aimeeb249

Thanks KeithP!
That's definitely a good point, I'll call them up Monday morning and see if they can help with this.