Redundancy Selection Concerns

MisterBull

lincroft1710 said:

MisterBull said:

It certainly feels like poor reward for the 1000s of extra hours put in over the years to keep key clients happy when no one else would do it! I guess that's the bit that really hurts most (and the bit where I've probably been most naiive in thinking it  would count for something given all I've put in over the years!). I guess at the end of the day we are all just numbers no matter what we might get told to the contrary when something is needed!

Unlike "The Prisoner", you ARE a number not a free man!

As soon as an employee becomes surplus to requirements or not performing in the employer's eyes, then all past achievements by that employee tend to be forgotten.

It has certainly been a hard learning experience, but has taught me a lot about how to view loyalty in future! 

Thrugelmir

MisterBull said:

lincroft1710 said:

MisterBull said:

It certainly feels like poor reward for the 1000s of extra hours put in over the years to keep key clients happy when no one else would do it! I guess that's the bit that really hurts most (and the bit where I've probably been most naiive in thinking it  would count for something given all I've put in over the years!). I guess at the end of the day we are all just numbers no matter what we might get told to the contrary when something is needed!

Unlike "The Prisoner", you ARE a number not a free man!

As soon as an employee becomes surplus to requirements or not performing in the employer's eyes, then all past achievements by that employee tend to be forgotten.

It has certainly been a hard learning experience, but has taught me a lot about how to view loyalty in future! 

Don't take it personally. As difficult as it may be. Bottom line is that it's business. 

superbigal

Do your 4 weeks. Then tell them it's not for you,  take the money and run would be my advice. I expect numerous "management" roles will be singled out of pools for redundancy. 
Not singling you out but so many companies are now actually wondering what some managers were actually doing when their employees have performed adequately at home without them.

MisterBull

Thrugelmir said:

MisterBull said:

lincroft1710 said:

MisterBull said:

It certainly feels like poor reward for the 1000s of extra hours put in over the years to keep key clients happy when no one else would do it! I guess that's the bit that really hurts most (and the bit where I've probably been most naiive in thinking it  would count for something given all I've put in over the years!). I guess at the end of the day we are all just numbers no matter what we might get told to the contrary when something is needed!

Unlike "The Prisoner", you ARE a number not a free man!

As soon as an employee becomes surplus to requirements or not performing in the employer's eyes, then all past achievements by that employee tend to be forgotten.

It has certainly been a hard learning experience, but has taught me a lot about how to view loyalty in future! 

Don't take it personally. As difficult as it may be. Bottom line is that it's business. 

Thanks @Thrugelmir

I totally get where you're coming from, and of course it ultimately comes down to money at the end of the day.  My relationship with the company goes a little further than most due to more personal connections and the relationship was referred to as "special" when encouraging me to not ask any rights-related questions when agreeing to an initial salary cut when COVID started to impact cash flow.  So some element of it does feel more personal.

It's possible it may yet come back to bite them in the !!!!!! as my relationship with most key clients is very close (and on a social level with many of them, beyond business) and those same clients have voiced their support, as there are many aspects of their day to day business that they know I know better and can support more effectively than anyone.  It's partly due to my feelings of loyalty to those same clients that have been loyal to me over the years that I wouldn't want to see the company fail and leave them in the lurch at such a tough time, even when I feel like I've not been well treated myself.  Talk about being torn in two!

MisterBull

superbigal said:

Do your 4 weeks. Then tell them it's not for you,  take the money and run would be my advice. I expect numerous "management" roles will be singled out of pools for redundancy. 
Not singling you out but so many companies are now actually wondering what some managers were actually doing when their employees have performed adequately at home without them.

@superbigal, I'm already seeing that happening with friends at all levels of business, right from the retail floor upward.  Partly due to questioning roles I'm sure,  but also due to a feeling that they can claw profits back quicker by running a "lean" setup and working a smaller pool of staff harder.  I know that the guys left at our place have been struggling as a result of work-pileup and not being able to take time off.  Those same guys are even now asking me for help that I cannot give as I'm furloughed.

Thrugelmir

MisterBull said:

superbigal said:

Do your 4 weeks. Then tell them it's not for you,  take the money and run would be my advice. I expect numerous "management" roles will be singled out of pools for redundancy. 
Not singling you out but so many companies are now actually wondering what some managers were actually doing when their employees have performed adequately at home without them.

Partly due to questioning roles I'm sure,  but also due to a feeling that they can claw profits back quicker by running a "lean" setup and working a smaller pool of staff harder.  I know that the guys left at our place have been struggling as a result of work-pileup and not being able to take time off.  Those same guys are even now asking me for help that I cannot give as I'm furloughed.

Biggest constraint when running a business is cashflow. Many a profitable business has gone under. Customers themselves want work undertaken or services provided then fail to pay in a timely manner. Late payment of debt due is a problem even in the good economic times. 

Juliette100

I find it hard to understand how a pool of staff can be graded against a criteria - have you seen that criteria - and you were not the lowest scoring yet you have been selected for redundancy.   How does that work ? So they are saying they’ll bump the lowest person to keep you but if you were to say no to that why is the lowest scoring person’s role not being made redundant. I know it goes on and sadly offering you an alternative albeit not a suitable alternative role is a way to keep money coming in but i do question if the grading doesn’t support you as the lowest scoring person why are you to be made redundant unless within the pool a number of staff, you and the lowest scoring too,  have to go. Always good to see your grading as well as others (even if these are anonymous) and you also have a right to an appeal regardless of what you accept.   If a tie breaker situation applied I could understand salary coming into play but I struggle when you  are not the lowest scoring but your role is to be made redundant.   What is the purpose of the grading? Just my 2 cents worth largely out of frustration when age discrimination applies.   Companies need to be accountable for their behaviour.  Sorry to hear about your treatment Misterbull  

getmore4less

nicechap said:

Have you a link to the employment rights act that you mention - I've never heard anything called that in UK before.

The core of employment protection in the UK is the Employment right act 996 as amended.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/contents

getmore4less

MisterBull said:

Thanks @Thrugelmir

I totally get where you're coming from, and of course it ultimately comes down to money at the end of the day.  My relationship with the company goes a little further than most due to more personal connections and the relationship was referred to as "special" when encouraging me to not ask any rights-related questions when agreeing to an initial salary cut when COVID started to impact cash flow.  So some element of it does feel more personal.

It's possible it may yet come back to bite them in the !!!!!! as my relationship with most key clients is very close (and on a social level with many of them, beyond business) and those same clients have voiced their support, as there are many aspects of their day to day business that they know I know better and can support more effectively than anyone.  It's partly due to my feelings of loyalty to those same clients that have been loyal to me over the years that I wouldn't want to see the company fail and leave them in the lurch at such a tough time, even when I feel like I've not been well treated myself.  Talk about being torn in two!

MisterBull said:

superbigal said:

Do your 4 weeks. Then tell them it's not for you,  take the money and run would be my advice. I expect numerous "management" roles will be singled out of pools for redundancy. 
Not singling you out but so many companies are now actually wondering what some managers were actually doing when their employees have performed adequately at home without them.

@superbigal, I'm already seeing that happening with friends at all levels of business, right from the retail floor upward.  Partly due to questioning roles I'm sure,  but also due to a feeling that they can claw profits back quicker by running a "lean" setup and working a smaller pool of staff harder.  I know that the guys left at our place have been struggling as a result of work-pileup and not being able to take time off.  Those same guys are even now asking me for help that I cannot give as I'm furloughed.

Is there any way you can leverage the knowledge and experience as a "consultant" for the client base and be in a position to become a contractor back at the old place if(when) things fall apart, especially if the is regulatory constraints that company has to follow.

Places can go lean and mean for a while but over time some stuff just does not get done when key links in the process and procedures are taken out and things that just got fixed/done stop happening.

Furlough rules allow part time working so they could get you back in to do stuff.
(if you are on notice they are paying you at 100% and not furlough rate?)

MisterBull

Juliette100 said:

I find it hard to understand how a pool of staff can be graded against a criteria - have you seen that criteria - and you were not the lowest scoring yet you have been selected for redundancy.   How does that work ? So they are saying they’ll bump the lowest person to keep you but if you were to say no to that why is the lowest scoring person’s role not being made redundant. I know it goes on and sadly offering you an alternative albeit not a suitable alternative role is a way to keep money coming in but i do question if the grading doesn’t support you as the lowest scoring person why are you to be made redundant unless within the pool a number of staff, you and the lowest scoring too,  have to go. Always good to see your grading as well as others (even if these are anonymous) and you also have a right to an appeal regardless of what you accept.   If a tie breaker situation applied I could understand salary coming into play but I struggle when you  are not the lowest scoring but your role is to be made redundant.   What is the purpose of the grading? Just my 2 cents worth largely out of frustration when age discrimination applies.   Companies need to be accountable for their behaviour.  Sorry to hear about your treatment Misterbull  

Hi @Juliette100, thanks for your comment.

It was all done via a skills matrix with several categories, with lowest weighting on experience and length of service, and highest weighting on "future potential", with performance and skills somewhere in the middle.  I did ask to see anonymised results but was told that they are confidential so not available to me.  All I know is my own score. 

I have found it difficult to understand the process used, and have wondered at times if (whether intentionally or not) it was designed to achieve the "desired" result as much as the "required" outcome (i.e. lose staff).  It makes it look better for clients that they offered me a role to stay with the company, and if I do so then they'll get the benefit of my years of knowledge (which is probably more or less the strongest across the board of anyone at the company) but at a cut-price.  It will be interesting if and when questions are asked or help requested for items relating to my previous role, since clients relied on me for rapid troubleshooting at third line support level and won't get this expedited as quickly from less experienced colleagues.  Technically I think I'd be within my right to say that anything very specific to my former role will have to be addressed by others, and probably that if any of this knowledge needed to be documented  etc. then the request should have been made during my notice period (which the government has been paying the bulk of under the furlough scheme).   If it can't be handled by others then surely the role is still "required".

For what it's worth I appreciated the difficulty the company would be in from an early stage and offered to take a fairly hefty salary cut for as long as it would take for the company to recover, but this was rejected as unrealistic.