Battery degradation in a used Nissan Leaf

vampireechidna

Hello,
8 week ago I purchased a 2017 plate Nissan Leaf 30kwh vehicle from a franchised Nissan dealership. It came with a 12 month used car warranty and the standard 8 year battery warranty. The vehicle in question had only done 36K from new. I specifically selected a mid to low mileage electric car, due to past issues with a higher mileage Leaf which had battery degradation. Upon inspecting the vehicle before purchase, I told my sales person of my concerns with battery degradation, but was reassured the 30kwh Leaf should be fine for many years to come.  6 weeks later I done my first rapid charge while travelling on a 145 mile tip. To my horror the battery health was showing it first sign of battery degradation. For those who might not know, these early Nissan Leafs have 12 bar status on the dashboard. Each loss of these Illuminated bars can be up to 8% battery capacity loss.  From my research it's very odd to see a Leaf under 40K loss it's first sate of health bar. This was partially not good considering I had the car for 6 week. At the time, I raised this with the dealership, who has just inspected the vehicle.  As per Nissan's warranty on the battery, it would have to be bellow 80% of it's original capacity before they would replace. (That's 9 bars out of 12) The dealership sates, they cannot do anything as it has over 80% of it's original capacity.  As a customer, I have purchased a car expecting 120 mile range, when I'm only getting about 105 miles. No only that, a 24Kwh Leaf would have been a cheaper option and covered around the same range. The car is now significantly worth less than that of it's original value, due to the lower range and battery state of health. I made this purchased based on a little longevity of the battery, only for my worse nightmare to come true. They claim they don't know when they sale the vehicles what the state of health is, however my argument is they are dealership who has tools and equipment to test vehicle before sale.  Granted no one know how the car was treated before. As many maybe aware, battery technology needs to be cared for. Some examples have done over 50K before a state of health bar is lost.  My question is, what can I do about my situation? Should I simply accept there is nothing that can be done? I feel somewhat annoyed and upset. Thank you. 

sweetsand

vampireechidna said:

Hello,
8 week ago I purchased a 2017 plate Nissan Leaf 30kwh vehicle from a franchised Nissan dealership. It came with a 12 month used car warranty and the standard 8 year battery warranty. The vehicle in question had only done 36K from new. I specifically selected a mid to low mileage electric car, due to past issues with a higher mileage Leaf which had battery degradation. Upon inspecting the vehicle before purchase, I told my sales person of my concerns with battery degradation, but was reassured the 30kwh Leaf should be fine for many years to come.  6 weeks later I done my first rapid charge while travelling on a 145 mile tip. To my horror the battery health was showing it first sign of battery degradation. For those who might not know, these early Nissan Leafs have 12 bar status on the dashboard. Each loss of these Illuminated bars can be up to 8% battery capacity loss.  From my research it's very odd to see a Leaf under 40K loss it's first sate of health bar. This was partially not good considering I had the car for 6 week. At the time, I raised this with the dealership, who has just inspected the vehicle.  As per Nissan's warranty on the battery, it would have to be bellow 80% of it's original capacity before they would replace. (That's 9 bars out of 12) The dealership sates, they cannot do anything as it has over 80% of it's original capacity.  As a customer, I have purchased a car expecting 120 mile range, when I'm only getting about 105 miles. No only that, a 24Kwh Leaf would have been a cheaper option and covered around the same range. The car is now significantly worth less than that of it's original value, due to the lower range and battery state of health. I made this purchased based on a little longevity of the battery, only for my worse nightmare to come true. They claim they don't know when they sale the vehicles what the state of health is, however my argument is they are dealership who has tools and equipment to test vehicle before sale.  Granted no one know how the car was treated before. As many maybe aware, battery technology needs to be cared for. Some examples have done over 50K before a state of health bar is lost.  My question is, what can I do about my situation? Should I simply accept there is nothing that can be done? I feel somewhat annoyed and upset. Thank you. 

Dear OP
This is a difficult one but the good news is you have bought from a main dealer.
IMHO, get and independent report from the RAC or another respected org. You will have to pay for it. What do you want from the report is what you need to decide as the battery will have lost some of its ability to retain charge/etc
The costs, if they accpet your claim could be recovered as good will IMO
Alternatively, wait a while and see how it goes as you have already registered your concerns and keep a record how often charged, driven etc.
ATB

tim_london

You are not going to like what I'm going to say.

It sounds like your primary source of frustration is the lack of range.  NEDC (i.e. advertised) range is very unrealistic in the real world.  But nearly every single car review online would give you a better real world range.  And I'm going to break it to you, even at brand new a Nissan Leaf 30kwh would only give 75miles range in winter, because batteries don't work as well in cold weathers.  With degradation you may get a few miles less than this.  You don't really have much ground to argue this, both dealer and manufacturer will just highlight that it is your driving style that is the issue.  Because NEDC is an official (albeit bad) test and they have passed it.

Then about the loss of capacity.  Again it feels like you are frustrated because 'you know', compared to ICE cars wear and tears that are almost impossible to know where they are at.  Using fast chargers too often can deplete the battery life faster, or if previous owner took it to under 20% too much, or it could simply be the weather affecting the readout.  All of this is within reasonable use.  The fact is it was 'full' at point of sale and it dropped after the period you can ask for a refund.  
There is nothing much you can do.  

Just my opinion.

DrEskimo

Yea I agree with above. I'm not sure where the 105 mile figure is coming from? If you assume 4miles/kWh in the summer, then if you had 30kWh then you would get 120miles from 100%. You've indicated 8% loss so your battery is now 27.6kWh. At the same assumed 4mi/kWh in the summer you would get 110miles. So you've lost 10miles of range.

Is that really 'realising your worst nightmare'? You could very easily reduce the range of a brand new 30kWh leaf by 10miles by accelerating hard all the time, or travelling 75MPH+. If the 120miles was the absolute minimum you needed, then 30kWh wasn't going to cut it more generally.

I would have advised you to get a 41kWh Zoe that has barely any degradation due to active battery management. Also around the same price without a lease....

In future you should use something like LeafSpy to check the actual SoH of a battery or asked the garage to provide it ahead of sale. You would have seen it would have been around 93%.

sweetsand

sweetsand said:

vampireechidna said:

Hello,
8 week ago I purchased a 2017 plate Nissan Leaf 30kwh vehicle from a franchised Nissan dealership. It came with a 12 month used car warranty and the standard 8 year battery warranty. The vehicle in question had only done 36K from new. I specifically selected a mid to low mileage electric car, due to past issues with a higher mileage Leaf which had battery degradation. Upon inspecting the vehicle before purchase, I told my sales person of my concerns with battery degradation, but was reassured the 30kwh Leaf should be fine for many years to come.  6 weeks later I done my first rapid charge while travelling on a 145 mile tip. To my horror the battery health was showing it first sign of battery degradation. For those who might not know, these early Nissan Leafs have 12 bar status on the dashboard. Each loss of these Illuminated bars can be up to 8% battery capacity loss.  From my research it's very odd to see a Leaf under 40K loss it's first sate of health bar. This was partially not good considering I had the car for 6 week. At the time, I raised this with the dealership, who has just inspected the vehicle.  As per Nissan's warranty on the battery, it would have to be bellow 80% of it's original capacity before they would replace. (That's 9 bars out of 12) The dealership sates, they cannot do anything as it has over 80% of it's original capacity.  As a customer, I have purchased a car expecting 120 mile range, when I'm only getting about 105 miles. No only that, a 24Kwh Leaf would have been a cheaper option and covered around the same range. The car is now significantly worth less than that of it's original value, due to the lower range and battery state of health. I made this purchased based on a little longevity of the battery, only for my worse nightmare to come true. They claim they don't know when they sale the vehicles what the state of health is, however my argument is they are dealership who has tools and equipment to test vehicle before sale.  Granted no one know how the car was treated before. As many maybe aware, battery technology needs to be cared for. Some examples have done over 50K before a state of health bar is lost.  My question is, what can I do about my situation? Should I simply accept there is nothing that can be done? I feel somewhat annoyed and upset. Thank you. 

Dear OP
This is a difficult one but the good news is you have bought from a main dealer.
IMHO, get and independent report from the RAC or another respected org. You will have to pay for it. What do you want from the report is what you need to decide as the battery will have lost some of its ability to retain charge/etc
The costs, if they accpet your claim could be recovered as good will IMO
Alternatively, wait a while and see how it goes as you have already registered your concerns and keep a record how often charged, driven etc.
ATB

Dear OP
The link below may put your mind at rist or not but IMO should help you decide your next step inc my previous post.
https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-program/
x

Grumpy_chap

The OP should rely on what @DrEskimo has said as he is knowledgeable in these parts.

vampireechidna

Thank you to all that have responded so far. Just to provide further information, this is not my first Nissan Leaf. I've been an electric car driver since 2014. My first Nissan Leaf was a 24Kwh with a realistic range of 90 miles in the summer and about 80 miles in the winter. I know from a previous family member who owned a 30Kwh they could get a realistic 120 miles in summer and about 110 miles in winter. Indeed it's how it's driven and battery care. I know all too well that battery degradation is normal, but when does it become too much for the price you pay? If the car had been price according to the degradation, then I wouldn't have brought it.  I was also assured, it's unlikely to see a drop in state of health within the first few year.(if looked after) That statement resonates well with me, from my own experience previously. My 24kwh didn't lose a bar until it had done 62K. Which I felt was a more than reasonable degradation. To loose a bar in 6 week and on the first rapid charge, seemed somewhat annoying, considering the higher price I paid for the vehicle (Against other on sale). If the dealership offer to bring the battery up to say 95% capacity, inline with it's age and mileage, that would have been reasonable outcome. Alternatively an exchange for one that had a better capacity. My annoyance comes from the lack of resolution. It appears to be a case of, "Well it's normal and you should continue to drive it". At this stage I don't know how quickly the next bar will drop, losing further range. 

I agree with the suggestion on obtaining a more independent inspection of the battery state of health. Like most people who would buy one of these cars, I don't know if this kind of degradation is normal. From what I've seen and read, it appear it's not so normal. My question to the dealership was, is there a fault with the battery pack? again I get the answer  what I've experienced is normal behaviour. Yet not what what I was told when initially buying the car and parting with a lot money to do so.  Thanks to those that have responded, I appropriate the suggestions and time. 

AdrianC

The charge indicator said full-strength at the time of purchase, and for the first six weeks afterwards?
I'm really not sure how that can be the vendor's fault. They could have had no way of foreseeing the drop.

If anything, it would be a claim under the original Nissan battery warranty - but they're very explicit that that is not sufficient drop to be regarded by them as problematic. Ergo, it could be seen as normal behaviour for a battery of that age and mileage, in the manufacturer's opinion.
https://www.nissan.co.uk/ownership/nissan-car-warranties.html
The Nissan LEAF ... lithium-ion battery state of health guarantee protects against battery capacity loss (less than 9 bars out of 12) as shown on the in vehicle capacity gauge for a period of 8 years / 100,000 miles for 30 kWh vehicles 

I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck with pursuing any legal recompense if the dealer doesn't offer a goodwill solution, tbh. Even notwithstanding the fact that you're outside both the statutory 30 day return period and the 30 day exchange under Nissan's approved-used scheme, I can't see this being viewed as a fault outside normal wear and tear for a claim under CRA.

vampireechidna

AdrianC said:

The charge indicator said full-strength at the time of purchase, and for the first six weeks afterwards?
I'm really not sure how that can be the vendor's fault. They could have had no way of foreseeing the drop.

If anything, it would be a claim under the original Nissan battery warranty - but they're very explicit that that is not sufficient drop to be regarded by them as problematic. Ergo, it could be seen as normal behaviour for a battery of that age and mileage, 
The Nissan LEAF ... lithium-ion battery state of health guarantee protects against battery capacity loss (less than 9 bars out of 12) as shown on the in vehicle capacity gauge for a period of 8 years / 100,000 miles for 30 kWh vehicles 

I don't think you're going to have a lot of luck with pursuing any legal recompense if the dealer doesn't offer a goodwill solution, tbh. Even notwithstanding the fact that you're outside both the statutory 30 day return period and the 30 day exchange under Nissan's approved-used scheme, I can't see this being viewed as a fault outside normal wear and tear for a claim under CRA.

The battery gave full 12 bars suggesting good health for the first six weeks. I'm unable to quantify the kind of range I should be getting, due to the low use during this pandemic. The Guess O Meter indicated an avarage range of 125 miles. I know little  credit can be given here, as the GOM isn't accurate like some EV's

ad to say, I think your right. I guess if you look at the context of a normal vehicle, you could buy a car with 30% remaining on your brake pads. Provided they were legal at the time of sale. Sooner or later you would have to replace them. At this moment in time it's not a requirement by law to state the battery capacity of a used EV. Going forward I think they should. Not everyone  has the technology  to check this. While I appreciate  you could get it inspected, it should simply be provided at the point of sale. The consumer should be provided this information to give them an informed choice. I've received no documentation  in relation to the battery heath nor at the time they were inspecting my query. 

gzoom

vampireechidna said:
lMy question to the dealership was, is there a fault with the battery pack? 

You're not the first to experience this. I've seen similar reports of people buying a Leaf from a Nissan dealer with 12 bars only to find within a few hundred miles the actual range/battery state is far worse.

Nissan dealers have access to a 'reset' tool which I believe essentially wipes the BMS memory, and makes the BMS think its brand new, by default the brand new range/battery state is than reported. But clearly with a degraded battery after a few charge cycles the BMS will recalibrate to the ture battery status.

Am not saying this is what your dealer did, but car dealers are car dealers....

AdrianC

vampireechidna said:

At this moment in time it's not a requirement by law to state the battery capacity of a used EV. Going forward I think they should. 

Even if it was a legal requirement, you said...

The battery gave full 12 bars suggesting good health for the first six weeks.

So what would they have said? "The battery shows full strength, 12 bars"

In your ownership, it's dipped to 11 bars - 11/12 = 91.7% - after 3yrs from new.
The Nissan warranty replaces it if it drops to 8 bars - 8/12 = 66.7% - after 8yrs.
Assuming that's a linear curve, you will not reach 66.7% by 8yrs. You'll reach about 75% (9/12?) when the warranty expires. And, AIUI, there's some evidence that initial degradation can be steeper than later, so it's more likely to be around 85% after 8yrs.

Everybody who's ever owned a laptop or mobile knows that LiIon batteries lose capacity over time. We just don't normally keep the same laptop or phone for 8yrs. EV batteries are the same basic chemistry as laptops or mobiles.