Battery degradation in a used Nissan Leaf

vampireechidna

DrEskimo said:

vampireechidna said:

gzoom said:

vampireechidna said:
lMy question to the dealership was, is there a fault with the battery pack? 

You're not the first to experience this. I've seen similar reports of people buying a Leaf from a Nissan dealer with 12 bars only to find within a few hundred miles the actual range/battery state is far worse.

Nissan dealers have access to a 'reset' tool which I believe essentially wipes the BMS memory, and makes the BMS think its brand new, by default the brand new range/battery state is than reported. But clearly with a degraded battery after a few charge cycles the BMS will recalibrate to the ture battery status.

Am not saying this is what your dealer did, but car dealers are car dealers....

Only over the past few days have I now become aware of this BMS resting. It's very possible they could have done this, however I cannot accuse without evidence. What I do think is a good idea, is to contact the previous owner. I'm fortunate that the person who part exchanged this vehicle lives in my town. If they wish to provide me the information of the bars, then that would give me some indication of this very much happening. Say they part exchanged on 11 bars. It's a long shot, might be worth a try. 

When were the services done? Did it have one from the dealer before you bought it?

I'm sure if you ring up a different dealer and give the reg then can look at the servicing reports and tell you what the SoH was at each date?

The last service was done in January 2020 at 33k. I brought it on 36k. There was no paper work in the car. 
Worth mentioning. When I brought the car the panel covering the ODBII was missing. They wanted to charge me about £30 for a replacement panel cover, however under goodwill they replaced it for me for free. This suggest someone has been using some form of diagnostic tool with the car. 

Jumblebumble

vampireechidna said:

Hello,
8 week ago I purchased a 2017 plate Nissan Leaf 30kwh vehicle from a franchised Nissan dealership. It came with a 12 month used car warranty and the standard 8 year battery warranty. The vehicle in question had only done 36K from new. I specifically selected a mid to low mileage electric car, due to past issues with a higher mileage Leaf which had battery degradation. Upon inspecting the vehicle before purchase, I told my sales person of my concerns with battery degradation, but was reassured the 30kwh Leaf should be fine for many years to come.  6 weeks later I done my first rapid charge while travelling on a 145 mile tip. To my horror the battery health was showing it first sign of battery degradation. For those who might not know, these early Nissan Leafs have 12 bar status on the dashboard. Each loss of these Illuminated bars can be up to 8% battery capacity loss.  From my research it's very odd to see a Leaf under 40K loss it's first sate of health bar. This was partially not good considering I had the car for 6 week. At the time, I raised this with the dealership, who has just inspected the vehicle.  As per Nissan's warranty on the battery, it would have to be bellow 80% of it's original capacity before they would replace. (That's 9 bars out of 12) The dealership sates, they cannot do anything as it has over 80% of it's original capacity.  As a customer, I have purchased a car expecting 120 mile range, when I'm only getting about 105 miles. No only that, a 24Kwh Leaf would have been a cheaper option and covered around the same range. The car is now significantly worth less than that of it's original value, due to the lower range and battery state of health. I made this purchased based on a little longevity of the battery, only for my worse nightmare to come true. They claim they don't know when they sale the vehicles what the state of health is, however my argument is they are dealership who has tools and equipment to test vehicle before sale.  Granted no one know how the car was treated before. As many maybe aware, battery technology needs to be cared for. Some examples have done over 50K before a state of health bar is lost.  My question is, what can I do about my situation? Should I simply accept there is nothing that can be done? I feel somewhat annoyed and upset. Thank you. 

Your 24K leaf would only have similar range if the batteries were new.
 I think you may be comparing apples with oranges

DrEskimo

vampireechidna said:

AdrianC said:

vampireechidna said:

At this moment in time it's not a requirement by law to state the battery capacity of a used EV. Going forward I think they should. 

Even if it was a legal requirement, you said...

The battery gave full 12 bars suggesting good health for the first six weeks.

So what would they have said? "The battery shows full strength, 12 bars"

In your ownership, it's dipped to 11 bars - 11/12 = 91.7% - after 3yrs from new.
The Nissan warranty replaces it if it drops to 8 bars - 8/12 = 66.7% - after 8yrs.
Assuming that's a linear curve, you will not reach 66.7% by 8yrs. You'll reach about 75% (9/12?) when the warranty expires. And, AIUI, there's some evidence that initial degradation can be steeper than later, so it's more likely to be around 85% after 8yrs.

Everybody who's ever owned a laptop or mobile knows that LiIon batteries lose capacity over time. We just don't normally keep the same laptop or phone for 8yrs. EV batteries are the same basic chemistry as laptops or mobiles.

Laptops and Cell phones are not the same price as a used vehicle. People pay a lot more money for them. Yes I believe to make a more informed choice, they should state the current battery health, for example 93.2%. That way the customer can choose to buy that vehicle or another. Imagine not being able to see the millage? I understand fully the Nissan warranty terms, having had them given to me by the dealership.  Not all vehicles will have the same level of degradation, it does depend on it's past treatment.  

vampireechidna said:

DrEskimo said:

AdrianC said:

Herzlos said:
If it drops under 80%, Nissan will replace it.

A lot lower than that... Nissan say "less than 9 bars" - so 8 bars out of 12. 66.7%, nominal.

 Yea that's the same as my Zoe. 8yrs/100k miles with replacement if it drops below 66%.

The good news for the OP is that 30kWh packs appear to be in short supply, so if they did reach below 66% in the warranty period, they might get a 40kWh battery replacement....sweetsand said:

Great posts DrE
We have thought about an eltric car in a couple of years time when batteries get even better but weary about them
not doing what the maker suggests well not for long.
Would you recoomed the OP gets an independt report once they have given the dealer a chance as I suggested but the OP needs to know what they need from the report that will have an impact on the dealer, a positive one.
Thanks

It's only the Leaf's that have the reputation for large degradation due largely to the lack of active cooling. Admittedly mine has only just ticked over 10,000 miles, but at 3.5years old my battery is still sitting at 98%.

No need for an independent report. Any dealer can scan the car quickly and give you the state of health. I even bought a cheap OBD dongle off Amazon and that can give you all the information you need.

@vampireechidna have you checked to see whether it might need a BMS update? I know the 22kWh Zoe's had an issue where it would report a much lower SoH than reality, and after a BMS update it would give a more realistic range and battery health status.

I was aware there is a BMS update for the 30kwh Leaf's. The dealership has told me, all updates have been done. 
The only way to conclude if this hasn't been applied, is if the state of health doesn't match the number of bars illuminated or the range is better than the expected  for the state of health. I have now invested in the kit for LeafSpy, to look at the battery health. The dealership told me the loss was 6%, however that would suggest the 12th bar is lost at around 94%. My 24kwh Leaf dropped at 90.2 % (Had that verified before I sold the vehicle) 

Very confused...your suggesting dealerships should tell you SoH, but in the next quote suggest that they did...they told you it lost 6%?

[Deleted User]

The problem here is the discrepancy between the resolution of the indicator, and the user's expectations. With a 12 bar display that's a resolution of 8.33%, which is not particularly impressive, so when your capacity drops from 92% to 91% the display indication goes from 12 to 11, which feels a lot more painful than the actual change that caused it. A 36 bar display going from 34 to 33 wouldn't have felt as bad.

vampireechidna

DrEskimo said:

vampireechidna said:

AdrianC said:

vampireechidna said:

At this moment in time it's not a requirement by law to state the battery capacity of a used EV. Going forward I think they should. 

Even if it was a legal requirement, you said...

The battery gave full 12 bars suggesting good health for the first six weeks.

So what would they have said? "The battery shows full strength, 12 bars"

In your ownership, it's dipped to 11 bars - 11/12 = 91.7% - after 3yrs from new.
The Nissan warranty replaces it if it drops to 8 bars - 8/12 = 66.7% - after 8yrs.
Assuming that's a linear curve, you will not reach 66.7% by 8yrs. You'll reach about 75% (9/12?) when the warranty expires. And, AIUI, there's some evidence that initial degradation can be steeper than later, so it's more likely to be around 85% after 8yrs.

Everybody who's ever owned a laptop or mobile knows that LiIon batteries lose capacity over time. We just don't normally keep the same laptop or phone for 8yrs. EV batteries are the same basic chemistry as laptops or mobiles.

Laptops and Cell phones are not the same price as a used vehicle. People pay a lot more money for them. Yes I believe to make a more informed choice, they should state the current battery health, for example 93.2%. That way the customer can choose to buy that vehicle or another. Imagine not being able to see the millage? I understand fully the Nissan warranty terms, having had them given to me by the dealership.  Not all vehicles will have the same level of degradation, it does depend on it's past treatment.  

vampireechidna said:

DrEskimo said:

AdrianC said:

Herzlos said:
If it drops under 80%, Nissan will replace it.

A lot lower than that... Nissan say "less than 9 bars" - so 8 bars out of 12. 66.7%, nominal.

 Yea that's the same as my Zoe. 8yrs/100k miles with replacement if it drops below 66%.

The good news for the OP is that 30kWh packs appear to be in short supply, so if they did reach below 66% in the warranty period, they might get a 40kWh battery replacement....sweetsand said:

Great posts DrE
We have thought about an eltric car in a couple of years time when batteries get even better but weary about them
not doing what the maker suggests well not for long.
Would you recoomed the OP gets an independt report once they have given the dealer a chance as I suggested but the OP needs to know what they need from the report that will have an impact on the dealer, a positive one.
Thanks

It's only the Leaf's that have the reputation for large degradation due largely to the lack of active cooling. Admittedly mine has only just ticked over 10,000 miles, but at 3.5years old my battery is still sitting at 98%.

No need for an independent report. Any dealer can scan the car quickly and give you the state of health. I even bought a cheap OBD dongle off Amazon and that can give you all the information you need.

@vampireechidna have you checked to see whether it might need a BMS update? I know the 22kWh Zoe's had an issue where it would report a much lower SoH than reality, and after a BMS update it would give a more realistic range and battery health status.

I was aware there is a BMS update for the 30kwh Leaf's. The dealership has told me, all updates have been done. 
The only way to conclude if this hasn't been applied, is if the state of health doesn't match the number of bars illuminated or the range is better than the expected  for the state of health. I have now invested in the kit for LeafSpy, to look at the battery health. The dealership told me the loss was 6%, however that would suggest the 12th bar is lost at around 94%. My 24kwh Leaf dropped at 90.2 % (Had that verified before I sold the vehicle) 

Very confused...your suggesting dealerships should tell you SoH, but in the next quote suggest that they did...they told you it lost 6%?

Not at the time of purchasing the car. They only told me, when it lost a health bar and they done an inspection. 
If I'd of know the health of the battery before purchase, then I might not of brought the car. 

Petriix

The moral of the story is to always use Leafspy to get the actual state of health for the battery before buying a second hand Leaf. However, it's still worth doing it now to see if there are any bad cells which could be replaced under warranty. You will have to fight your corner but I've heard success stories.

facade

It occurs to me that resetting the BMS would be normal at a service, so it is forced to re-learn the state of the battery.

gzoom

facade said:

It occurs to me that resetting the BMS would be normal at a service, so it is forced to re-learn the state of the battery.

I highly doubt its 'normal' practice for a dealer to even think about the BMS......expect when selling a car knowing full well any EV displaying a good range will sell for more money than one displaying less range.

Again am not saying the dealer set out to deliberately misled OP, but car dealers aren't exactly known for their moral integrity/ethics.

DoaM

gzoom said:

facade said:

It occurs to me that resetting the BMS would be normal at a service, so it is forced to re-learn the state of the battery.

I highly doubt its 'normal' practice for a dealer to even think about the BMS......expect when selling a car knowing full well any EV displaying a good range will sell for more money than one displaying less range.

Again am not saying the dealer set out to deliberately misled OP, but car dealers aren't exactly known for their moral integrity/ethics.

You've contradicted yourself in the 2 sentences ... if they know a good battery range will sell better, and have reset the BMS to enable the display of a good battery range, then they've by direct action deliberately misled a consumer.

vampireechidna

 A further update:
LeafSpy reports the battery state of health to be 80.08%. I would say that's more than the 6% loss the dealership has told me. Under the Nissan's warranty, it has to be less than the 80% of original capacity. I cannot see how that would equate to 9 bars. If one bar is about 6% (not conclusive). At 10 bars this surly would be around 74% of it's original capacity.