Landscapers completed job incorrectly - issue with paving

brumbill

We’ve just had work done to our patio. We’ve had 20mm porcelain slabs laid. The guys who’ve done it have butt joined them, so there's (virtually) no gap between them. We’ve since been told that such slabs should have at the very minimum, a 3mm gap, preferably more. Otherwise this leads to cracking and spelling of the slabs over time.

I’ve raised this with them, and, 4 days later, they’ve come back to say that they have done what we told them to do and they informed us that there would be problems if they laid the slabs like that, but we told them to anyway. This is not true at all!

What would normally happen in this scenario? Aside from the fact that they are outright lying, wouldn’t most traders refuse to do work requested by the customer if they knew it would be faulty, or at least get it in writing? For example, if you told a roofer you wanted 2 inch gaps between all your roof tiles they would just say no as it will leak? He wouldn’t just say ‘that’s a bad idea but I’ll do it anyway - the customer is always right’?

Also, how does payment work in this scenario? The job is complete, and the only reason we know it’s been done wrong is by chance. I’m guessing they were hoping to get away with it. Do you have to pay for completed work and then try to make a claim back against it under trade descriptions or something? As to rectify they would basically have To excavate it all, do it all again AND cover the cost of the slabs.

I know there’s places you can go to search for your rights under this (and have done) but just wondered if anyone on here had first hand experience of it or what you would do as a tradesman in this sort of scenario. They’ve said they’ll come out to discuss it after we’ve paid the invoice, but I don’t want to part with money I won’t ever see again for them to turn round and say they won’t do anything. 

Can anyone advise what the ‘proper’ procedure would be to take this forward?

many thanks 

twopenny

Were these men in business specifically for laying paving? Some people specialise in it and this is a relatively new type of paving?

Did their quote specifiy to lay the paving in a certain way?

Did you ask the company you bought the slabs from how best to lay them?

I do feel for the guys that laid them. They did what you asked. Laid them. And you effectively want them to do the job, take that job out and do it again - so 3 times for the money they quoted you for once.

If they aren't a company specialising in paving (so should have known), if they are just a couple of guys self employed then they wouldn't know either.

I've done some research and I've seen from none to 1mm to 5mm suggested but 1mm seems to be the most offered by professionals. Are you sure that tiny space isn't there?

It's only to stop the edges from maybe chipping, not the whole tile breaking so If you are going to suggest they do 3 times the work and loose a lot of money from their business you need to have absoloutly certain facts and have them in writing from someone qualified that prove negligence and non compliance with the contract.

So who was the person that told you?

Le_Kirk

Is this the same issue that you posted about in the Consumer Rights area?

[Deleted User]

You might be best paying, whether you try to do it as split payments and keeping communication open with the company. The alternative is to await a court claim which of course you get to counter defend, but that's probably after a 7 day notice letter charge and then claim costs.

Homer_home

unless you have something in writing on how the slabs were to be laid then you are onto a bit of a sticky wicket

it will come down to what he said, what she said

have you checked with the manufacture of the slabs as to how wide the gap needs to be?

Doozergirl

Better not to pay, or pay an amount and demand that it's relaid, as long as you have your facts straight on how it should be laid. 

If you've gone against the manufacturer's advice then your contractor should have put that in writing somewhere, even if it was just a text.  They're the experts, they should be able to prove their own advice to prevent future claims against them! 

Frankly, anyone worth their salt will influence the customer to do it correctly.  No one wins when there are problems down the line.  You wither do it correctly or not at all, in my book.  

tacpot12

I would suggest you try to agree with them that you will not pay them for their work, and tell them that if they sue, you will counter-claim for the cost of the tiles/slabs. They are being paid to do the work, therefore they have to use reasonable care and skill in doing so. This would mean checking how the tiles/slabs should be laid, and laying them correctly. If they knew that laying them as they did would cause problems (which they would IF they had checked the manufacturer's instructions), they should have given you something in writing to absolve them from responsibility for problems. That they did not do this suggests that they did not know there might be problems (because they didn't checked the manufacturer's instructions). Therefore they did not use reasonable care.  

You will then have to pay for the slabs and the fitting by a competent contractor, but this is the price of not specifying in the contract that the slabs were to be laid according to the manufacturer's. instructions. If this was specified in the contact, don't pay them and sue them for the cost of the tiles and their relaying. Your letter before action should give them the option to supply and lay the tiles correctly. 

brumbill

To clear up:

they are a landscaping and paving company with 20+ years experience

the quote was to lay the slabs and build a retaining wall

we discussed with them the colour grout to use both when they cane out to do the quote and also on the first day, but never to not use any

Now we have contacted them to say we would like to meet to discuss the issue and find an amicable solution, but that we aren’t willing to pay for the work until we’ve found a resolution

and they have replied to say that they are going to their solicitors


Im still confused by the notion that a professional tradesman would just do what a customer tells them to do even if this means the work will be faulty and wouldn’t say ‘no we can’t do that because x,y,z will go wrong’ - even ignoring the fact that the conversation never happened in the first place!

Doozergirl

You have a right to be confused. 

Let them go to their solicitor.  Any litigation through solicitor's will cost more than your bill!    I can imagine what their advice will be.   

If they're going to issue small claims proceedings, you need to find the manufacturer's instructions on how the product should be laid and can counterclaim for the cost of putting it right.  

They'll need to prove that you requested something else, that they advised otherwise and still went ahead.  If it didn't happen, they're not going to prove it very well. 

I'm not a landscaper but I know the porcelain isn't particularly beholden to the elements, so it doesn't expand and contract in the same way as other products.  It doesn't spall.  If you've done you homework, then fine.  

The cost of losing a small claim is the cost of the application only, so it doesn't hurt.  Really, it seems like the cheapest thing for them to do is rectify it.  

brumbill

Doozergirl said:

You have a right to be confused. 

Let them go to their solicitor.  Any litigation through solicitor's will cost more than your bill!    I can imagine what their advice will be.   

If they're going to issue small claims proceedings, you need to find the manufacturer's instructions on how the product should be laid and can counterclaim for the cost of putting it right.  

They'll need to prove that you requested something else, that they advised otherwise and still went ahead.  If it didn't happen, they're not going to prove it very well. 

I'm not a landscaper but I know the porcelain isn't particularly beholden to the elements, so it doesn't expand and contract in the same way as other products.  It doesn't spall.  If you've done you homework, then fine.  

The cost of losing a small claim is the cost of the application only, so it doesn't hurt.  Really, it seems like the cheapest thing for them to do is rectify it.  

Thanks very much

what I do find odd as well is that, initially when we queried it, we asked if what they’d done would cause problems further down the line - I was sort of hoping they’d just say ‘no it’s fine as we did x y and z so there won’t be any problems’

but their response was just ‘your wife told us to’. It’s such an odd defence!

brumbill

And now they’ve started abusing my wife in the playground at school...