Euro car parks PCN during COVID-19 Lockdown

DimDi

KeithP said:

DimDi said:

I’ll scrap number 5 then.

Why?

Your Section 5 argues that they have not met the terms of POFA.

What you need to do is add to that stating that as ECP has not complied with POFA, and as ECP have not proved that the RK was actually driving, then the RK has no case to answer.

Read that part of the third post of the NEWBIES thread that I pointed you towards earlier.
That whole argument has already been written for you - ready to copy and paste into your PoPLA appeal.

5. No Evidence of Period Parked – NtK does not meet PoFA 2012 Requirements.

The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. As there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.

As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.

The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:

Understanding keeper liability
'There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

There is no 'reasonable presumption' in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.'

Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA.

This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:
''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''

Contrary to the mandatory provisions of the BPA Code of Practice, there is no
record to show that the vehicle was parked versus attempting to read the terms
and conditions before deciding against parking/entering into a contract.

Furthermore, PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 paragraph 9 refers at numerous times to
the “period of parking”. Most notably, paragraph 9(2)(a) requires the NtK to:

“specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period
of parking to which the notice relates;”

Euro Car Parks’ NtK simply claims “the vehicle was parked at Marks and Spencer – St Albans, 21 St Peter Street,St Albans,Herfordshire(the correct spelling is “HerTfordshire),AL1 3DP”

The NtK separately states that the vehicle “entered Marks and Spencer-St Albans at 09:45:37 and departed at 12:31:59”. At no stage do Euro Car Parks explicitly specify the “period of parking to which the notice relates”, as required by PoFA 2012.

Euro Car Parks NtK states “we are using cameras to capture images of vehicles
entering and leaving the car park to calculate their length of stay”. It is not in the
gift of Euro Car Parks to substitute “entry/exit” or “length of stay” in place of the
POFA requirement - “period of parking” - and hold the keeper liable as a result.

By virtue of the nature of an ANPR system recording only entry and exit times,
Euro Car Parks are not able to definitively state the period of parking.

I require Euro Car Parks to provide evidence to show the vehicle in question was
parked on the date/time (for the duration claimed) and at the location stated in
the NtK.
Any better?

DimDi

Umkomaas said:

If this is the car park at the rear of M&S (and Tesco) it seems to me that M&S aren't the landowner. 

I'm not clear from your initial post - did you use the car park initially for the purpose of parking for your appointment with the midwife?  If so, I'm afraid those sort of days are long over, every private car park is a bear trap .... and PPC income is 80% down, they're hungry!

Yes,that is the exact car park and no-I do not attempt appointment with the midwife as at that time all appointment were cancelled due to COVID-19.Look at the photos in the appeal-M&S logo appears in all signs.

DimDi

Coupon-mad said:

What else should I do? So far because of this they lost at least 10 customers - friends and family.

That is what you should be saying in reply and ask them to reconsider, or pass the complaint to the landowner, if it wasn't M&S who contracted ECP.  Someone can cancel this.

STOP DOING POPLA FIRST. 

YOU HAVE 33 DAYS TO USE THAT POPLA CODE.   What's the date on the rejection letter? 

Put POPLA on the back burner because you need the landowner to cancel it, by having another go at M&S, as above.  Also ask them why they think it is OK to have a 2hr limit PRE-Covid but not increase it or suspend enforcement due to the queues for social distancing that cause people to take longer to shop.

I already did that on 12 August and so far have no answer from them.That’s my second letter to M&S:
Dear Lauren,

Thank you for your quick response.

I’m well aware about the time limit of the car park before pandemic as we used it weekly for our shopping.The point in my letter was during pandemic with all the measures,queues and waiting time inside the shop.It would be far better to extend that time during the pandemic, than make it free for 2 hours as it’s already been free for M&S customers.

Anyway I guess the profits are more important than your customers, so my family and close friends will not do their shopping in M&S anymore.

I wish you all a lovely week and stay safe.

Kind Regards,

The date of the rejection letter from ECP is 8th September.

beamerguy

Lauren Harvey,  Executive Team IS clearly NOT depending on customers to pay her wages and the way M&S are going does not give anyone faith to shop at M&S.

It may well mean that that this branch is on a site and the landowner employs Euro but that really makes no difference as on "stand alone" M&S sites they employ Euro and can get these tickets cancelled ..... what are M&S so scared about ?

Lauren Harvey has made a stupid error by saying the 2 hour limit was in place before covid ?
Before covid, everywhere was normal, is she living in a dream.

You must not accept this rubbish, want help with a response to the CEO

Umkomaas

DimDi said:

Umkomaas said:

If this is the car park at the rear of M&S (and Tesco) it seems to me that M&S aren't the landowner. 

I'm not clear from your initial post - did you use the car park initially for the purpose of parking for your appointment with the midwife?  If so, I'm afraid those sort of days are long over, every private car park is a bear trap .... and PPC income is 80% down, they're hungry!

Yes,that is the exact car park and no-I do not attempt appointment with the midwife as at that time all appointment were cancelled due to COVID-19.Look at the photos in the appeal-M&S logo appears in all signs.

Forgive me my confusion, but this is what you said in your OP:

As I was 30 weeks  pregnant I had an appointment with the midwife ( surgery is about 5 min. away from the car park) which was done for about 20 min. and then I went to M&S .

Not sure how an appointment 'was done for about 20 minutes' when 'all appointment were cancelled'.  

DimDi

beamerguy said:

Lauren Harvey,  Executive Team IS clearly NOT depending on customers to pay her wages and the way M&S are going does not give anyone faith to shop at M&S.

It may well mean that that this branch is on a site and the landowner employs Euro but that really makes no difference as on "stand alone" M&S sites they employ Euro and can get these tickets cancelled ..... what are M&S so scared about ?

Lauren Harvey has made a stupid error by saying the 2 hour limit was in place before covid ?
Before covid, everywhere was normal, is she living in a dream.

You must not accept this rubbish, want help with a response to the CEO

Thanks beamerguy,
But since I got no response on the second letter,I doubt there would be one if I send third.And I'm running out of time too as the 28 days period ends in 2 days or 7 if we count them as Coupon-mad have said.Anyway I assume that I can send another one just don't know what else to point in it.

Coupon-mad

DimDi said:

Coupon-mad said:

What else should I do? So far because of this they lost at least 10 customers - friends and family.

That is what you should be saying in reply and ask them to reconsider, or pass the complaint to the landowner, if it wasn't M&S who contracted ECP.  Someone can cancel this.

STOP DOING POPLA FIRST. 

YOU HAVE 33 DAYS TO USE THAT POPLA CODE.   What's the date on the rejection letter? 

Put POPLA on the back burner because you need the landowner to cancel it, by having another go at M&S, as above.  Also ask them why they think it is OK to have a 2hr limit PRE-Covid but not increase it or suspend enforcement due to the queues for social distancing that cause people to take longer to shop.

I already did that on 12 August and so far have no answer from them.That’s my second letter to M&S:
Dear Lauren,

Thank you for your quick response.

I’m well aware about the time limit of the car park before pandemic as we used it weekly for our shopping.The point in my letter was during pandemic with all the measures,queues and waiting time inside the shop.It would be far better to extend that time during the pandemic, than make it free for 2 hours as it’s already been free for M&S customers.

Anyway I guess the profits are more important than your customers, so my family and close friends will not do their shopping in M&S anymore.

I wish you all a lovely week and stay safe.

Kind Regards,

This isn't what I suggested. You are not going to get a reply to that.

Your reply there sounds like a conclusion to the communications. You didn't ask anything, gave her no deadline to respond (in fact it looks like she doesn't need to respond) and didn't ask her to escalate it, nor tell you who the landowner was who contracted the Scammers if M&S didn't.

The date of the rejection letter from ECP is 8th September.

You have the whole of next week to escalated this to get it cancelled, then. 

You CANNOT do that after starting POPLA.  ECP will refuse to cancel if you start POPLA, that's why the complaint has to be exhausted first.

beamerguy

DimDi said:

beamerguy said:

Lauren Harvey,  Executive Team IS clearly NOT depending on customers to pay her wages and the way M&S are going does not give anyone faith to shop at M&S.

It may well mean that that this branch is on a site and the landowner employs Euro but that really makes no difference as on "stand alone" M&S sites they employ Euro and can get these tickets cancelled ..... what are M&S so scared about ?

Lauren Harvey has made a stupid error by saying the 2 hour limit was in place before covid ?
Before covid, everywhere was normal, is she living in a dream.

You must not accept this rubbish, want help with a response to the CEO

Thanks beamerguy,
But since I got no response on the second letter,I doubt there would be one if I send third.And I'm running out of time too as the 28 days period ends in 2 days or 7 if we count them as Coupon-mad have said.Anyway I assume that I can send another one just don't know what else to point in it.

You know, there are responses and then there are RESPONSES.
You continue to appeal within the time frame.

I offer no guarantee and can only say that the last person I helped on here with a letter to the CEO, there was a good response.   It is very doubtful that the CEO read your letter as it was read and answered by Lauren Harvey.   The letter from Lauren Harvey put in plain english is telling you they don't want you as a customer ?
With a CEO who is struggling to keep M&S afloat and closing branches. Most CEO's are not on ground zero and rely on the so called "Executive Office" ....... BAD MOVE

You have nothing to lose with a different approach, I do this because I truly hate the parking scammers and I love letters with a punch line.  Up to you, you can PM me. My friends on here will confirm I am genuine and best for you .... I do it for free

DimDi

Umkomaas said:

DimDi said:

Umkomaas said:

If this is the car park at the rear of M&S (and Tesco) it seems to me that M&S aren't the landowner. 

I'm not clear from your initial post - did you use the car park initially for the purpose of parking for your appointment with the midwife?  If so, I'm afraid those sort of days are long over, every private car park is a bear trap .... and PPC income is 80% down, they're hungry!

Yes,that is the exact car park and no-I do not attempt appointment with the midwife as at that time all appointment were cancelled due to COVID-19.Look at the photos in the appeal-M&S logo appears in all signs.

Forgive me my confusion, but this is what you said in your OP:

As I was 30 weeks  pregnant I had an appointment with the midwife ( surgery is about 5 min. away from the car park) which was done for about 20 min. and then I went to M&S .

Not sure how an appointment 'was done for about 20 minutes' when 'all appointment were cancelled'.  

Sorry Umkomaas,
I probably haven't been clear - all appointments during pregnancy are  pre-booked and planned(All of this in a green book that every pregnant woman is given after her first scan).Nearly all of them was cancelled because of the COVID.What I meant was that on this particular day I had an appointment pre-booked with the midwife but when I shows up there it turns out it was cancelled.That whole trip from the car park to the midwife and back took me not more than 15- 20 min. and all the other time I spend queuing to enter,shopping and queuing at the tills at M&S.I hope now is more clear

DimDi

Coupon-mad said:

DimDi said:

Coupon-mad said:

What else should I do? So far because of this they lost at least 10 customers - friends and family.

That is what you should be saying in reply and ask them to reconsider, or pass the complaint to the landowner, if it wasn't M&S who contracted ECP.  Someone can cancel this.

STOP DOING POPLA FIRST. 

YOU HAVE 33 DAYS TO USE THAT POPLA CODE.   What's the date on the rejection letter? 

Put POPLA on the back burner because you need the landowner to cancel it, by having another go at M&S, as above.  Also ask them why they think it is OK to have a 2hr limit PRE-Covid but not increase it or suspend enforcement due to the queues for social distancing that cause people to take longer to shop.

I already did that on 12 August and so far have no answer from them.That’s my second letter to M&S:
Dear Lauren,

Thank you for your quick response.

I’m well aware about the time limit of the car park before pandemic as we used it weekly for our shopping.The point in my letter was during pandemic with all the measures,queues and waiting time inside the shop.It would be far better to extend that time during the pandemic, than make it free for 2 hours as it’s already been free for M&S customers.

Anyway I guess the profits are more important than your customers, so my family and close friends will not do their shopping in M&S anymore.

I wish you all a lovely week and stay safe.

Kind Regards,

This isn't what I suggested. You are not going to get a reply to that.

Your reply there sounds like a conclusion to the communications. You didn't ask anything, gave her no deadline to respond (in fact it looks like she doesn't need to respond) and didn't ask her to escalate it, nor tell you who the landowner was who contracted the Scammers if M&S didn't.

The date of the rejection letter from ECP is 8th September.

You have the whole of next week to escalated this to get it cancelled, then. 

You CANNOT do that after starting POPLA.  ECP will refuse to cancel if you start POPLA, that's why the complaint has to be exhausted first.

I'll do this then and keep you updated about the outcome.Hope they will respond in the next few days.