Dodgy landlord query

Scotbot

Ten to one these lads were students and this is a typical student landlord who does the bare minimum knowing there will be another bunch there in a years time. I lived in exactly that sort of place for a year, it looked just like the flat out of The Young Ones

ElephantBoy57

smoo123 said:

year's tenancy in a private house - which has been pretty poor in general - repairs not carried out, no hot water for a lengthy period, not enough food storage.  Legally there are also holes - they were only sent the deposit protection info towards the end of the year (and not within the requisite 30 days), they weren't given gas/electricity certificates on time, etc.   Now they are only being offered 2/3 of their deposit back - reasons listed: an oven clean, chipped decoration, a dent in a wall, (a very small amount of) rubbish clearance.

Quite a large deposit then, £600 does seem excessive, but if it's London or another popular city. If you are paying it for him, he will/does not care. I am sure they could have gone back during the last few months to clean and repair what was needed.

Lokolo

smoo123 said:

Ouch!  Lot of landlords round here, clearly with axes to grind.  Not sure there's justification for the comments.   It was a genuine query - no need for the personal attacks.  Last time I came here it was friendly!  

Your post is full of holes and your post seems to indicate that you, or the tenants, shouldn't have to pay anything for damage they've caused and that they should be entitled to comepnsation!??!
Is the landlord being a bit of an a***? Maybe, but from the sounds of things and the damages caused, the tenants weren't exactly well behaved and now you want money from the landlord? Good grief. 

smoo123

greatcrested said:

Not what you (or the tenants?) wanted to hear, but all the above are valid comments. For detailed response see bold below:

* by 'finish' do you mean the tenants simply moved out, or the tenancy was properly ended?

Properly ended.

* 'finished' how? The fixed term ended? The landlord served a S21 Notice and a court awarded him possession? Or the tenants served proper notice? Please clarify.
Proper notice served.

* on what exact date did it finish?

* how did the tenants deal with the repairing problems during the tenancy? Once the tenancy has ended it's a bit late....
They have many documented letters/emails/texts asking for repairs that were never done.

* unless the landlord removed storage cupbords between the date the tenancy agreement was signed and the date the tenancy started, the fault lies with the tenants.

Yes - food storage was removed
.* The tenants can claim 3 times the deposit as penalty. Likely to be awrded less, eg 1 (maybe 2?) times the deposit as a) the deposit WAS protected and b) the info WAS sent, albeit late.

* no certificates = LL cannot serve valid S21 Notice. See my 1st question above.

* cannot comment on 'etc'.

* are these valid claims ie was the oven dirty? did the tenants chip the decoration etc?
Yes did need a clean. No to wall chippings.  Certainly no to £200 to clear non-existent rubbish that wasn't left.

* are the ammounts claimed fair? See link below.

  I would say no - not fair. Thus the post. 

* as above - claim for penalty ( not compensation) for late deposit info is on the face of it likely to succeed
* the deposit deductions depend on the questions above

* yes the scheme only deals with the deposit

* no the small claims court will not award compensation for missing certificates, or storage cupboards, or repairing issues, unless the tenants can clearly evidence a financial loss they have incurred

This was the nub of the question really.  Tenants suffered a lot of hassle/no heating/water/storage repairs not carried out but can't prove financial loss.  In the light of this will probably stick with DPS and not take it further.  

* as you don't mention the 'many issues' we cannot really comment - but the same principles as above apply:

a) did the tenants properly report and pursue any repairing issues during the tenancy?
Yes, many times.

b) can the tenance provide evidence of financial los they incurred as a direct result of those issues?

No - see above. 

* when did the tenancy 'finish' (your word)? If after lockdown how is the LL 'quids in'? He (presumably) demanded and received rent as per the contract till the date the contract finished?
A bills inclusive set-up with nobody living there for a quarter of the year suggests a bigger than usual profit for a LL - who delivered zero and met few of the required regulations.  My use of "quids in" comes from my own frustration with the situation.

* if the tenants chose not to live in the property, for a weekend away, a month in Ibiza, or 3 months somewhere else (parents?) that is nothing to do with the LL. He received no extra money - simply what the contract specified.

Fair point.

Have decided to stick with the DPS rather than risk taking it further.  Hope this helps someone else in a similar position.

smoo123

" from the sounds of things and the damages caused, the tenants weren't exactly well behaved"

Sorry to be dim but not sure I understand this comment?  The point of the post is, there was no damage caused and they were well behaved.  It was a question about a LL who has fallen short of requirements/regulations and what recourse there is to that - whether it is worth pursuing.  I have decided it probably isn't on the face of it.  Thanks again to the posters who understood the question.

greatcrested

I forgot to attach the link. In case it helps:

Post 3: Deposits: Payment, Protection and Return.

I as intimated, you've now provided additional information. My post above was based on the (incomplete) original information - hence the questions.

If the cupboard was removed after the tenancy was signed/contract created, tenants could claim for any cost they incurred getting a replacement (of similar size and age). But not compensation for inconvenience.

If some all of the damage /cleaning claims are unjustifed, tenants can challenge them via the deposit scheme. Compare the check in inventory record with the check out report + tenants own photos etc.

If the damage is acknowledged, but the amount is unreasonable, again challenge it with more reasonable quotes for the same work.

But compensation for repairing issues - unlikely. Could have escalated these during the tenancy eg to EH.

Bills inclusive rent. Yes I understand that he made additional profit if his utilities charges were lower than expected, but equally had there been a long hard winter he'd have taken a heat on higher than expected charges. That's the nature of 'all bills included'. The LL has swings and roundabouts. The tenants have the advantage of regular known amounts so easy budget planning, less hassle, and avoiding internal disputes eg one student can't or won't pay their share of a gas bill.......

Late deposit notification could be a bargaining point. "Return our deposit in full and we won't apply for the penalty". Perhaps presented more subtly/diplomatically........

AdrianC

smoo123 said:

" from the sounds of things and the damages caused, the tenants weren't exactly well behaved"

Sorry to be dim but not sure I understand this comment?  The point of the post is, there was no damage caused...

Then the deposit arbitration scheme will return their full deposit.

From your very first post in the thread...

smoo123 said:

Now they are only being offered 2/3 of their deposit back - reasons listed: an oven clean, chipped decoration, a dent in a wall, (a very small amount of) rubbish clearance.
...
Some of the reasons listed are correct (the oven probably does need a clean)

So ~£1k deposit "no damage" is now less an oven clean.
And what about the "(very small amount of)" rubbish?
And the dent in the wall? And the chipped decoration? Would you expect them as fair wear and tear for a year in your home?

smoo123

That is all extremely helpful, thank you.  

smoo123

AdrianC said:

smoo123 said:

" from the sounds of things and the damages caused, the tenants weren't exactly well behaved"

Sorry to be dim but not sure I understand this comment?  The point of the post is, there was no damage caused...

Then the deposit arbitration scheme will return their full deposit.

From your very first post in the thread...

smoo123 said:

Now they are only being offered 2/3 of their deposit back - reasons listed: an oven clean, chipped decoration, a dent in a wall, (a very small amount of) rubbish clearance.
...
Some of the reasons listed are correct (the oven probably does need a clean)

So ~£1k deposit "no damage" is now less an oven clean.
And what about the "(very small amount of)" rubbish?
And the dent in the wall? And the chipped decoration? Would you expect them as fair wear and tear for a year in your home?

You are misunderstanding.  These are the complaints listed by the LL - and they are strongly disputed by the tenants.  That was the point of the post - ie, where do they stand, is it worth pursuing or would they run the risk of gaining nothing after much hassle, would they run the risk of losing out financially if they pursued it, etc.  I don't know what planet you live on but in my world, £600 for wiping an oven down is steep.  
Just wanted genuine advice.  Not sure why everyone is so interested in picking posts apart and going for the jugular!    Sigh...

AdrianC

smoo123 said:

AdrianC said:

smoo123 said:

" from the sounds of things and the damages caused, the tenants weren't exactly well behaved"

Sorry to be dim but not sure I understand this comment?  The point of the post is, there was no damage caused...

Then the deposit arbitration scheme will return their full deposit.

From your very first post in the thread...

smoo123 said:

Now they are only being offered 2/3 of their deposit back - reasons listed: an oven clean, chipped decoration, a dent in a wall, (a very small amount of) rubbish clearance.
...
Some of the reasons listed are correct (the oven probably does need a clean)

So ~£1k deposit "no damage" is now less an oven clean.
And what about the "(very small amount of)" rubbish?
And the dent in the wall? And the chipped decoration? Would you expect them as fair wear and tear for a year in your home?

You are misunderstanding.  These are the complaints listed by the LL - and they are strongly disputed by the tenants.  That was the point of the post - ie, where do they stand, is it worth pursuing or would they run the risk of gaining nothing after much hassle, would they run the risk of losing out financially if they pursued it, etc.  I don't know what planet you live on but in my world, £600 for wiping an oven down is steep.  
Just wanted genuine advice.  Not sure why everyone is so interested in picking posts apart and going for the jugular!    Sigh...

Perhaps I am misunderstanding. We can only go by what you've posted.

You have been told repeatedly - the tenants need to request the deposit back from the arbitration service. Let the landlord prove the deductions are fair.
You're right, £600 for "wiping an oven down" would be steep.
But that's not what is involved, and that's not what the £600 is for.
£600 for professional cleaning of an oven, for trade disposal of waste, and for repairs to plaster and decoration...? Not necessarily unfair. If the landlord can prove it. If he can't, it doesn't get deducted.

The rest is irrelevant. It might have been relevant if they'd been given notice, and didn't want to live. But they left voluntarily, right?